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Help with Right of Way argument....
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 21, 2010 8:16 pm 
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Hello.
I need some help to settle a “Right of Way” argument. I know this question has probably been asked a thousand times before, but after doing a search, I was unable to find a posting on the forum, or the specific section in the OHTA relating to it.

Scenario:
Two cars approach an intersection where the east and westbound directions are controlled by stop signs, and the north and southbound directions are through traffic. Car A, traveling east, is stopped at the stop sign waiting to make a left turn. Car B, traveling west, arrives at the opposite stop sign well after Car A, and is waiting to make a right turn (or, in a slight variant to the scenario, to proceed straight across). When the the north and southbound traffic is clear, who has the right of way.

I was taught that Car A, turning left (or going straight through) must give right of way Car B. My wife states that Car A has right of way because it arrived at the intersection long before Car B.

What I’m looking for is the specific law in the OHTA that states who has right of way.
Can anyone help!

Kevin


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:54 am 
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I believe that you are correct, I'd go with 141(5):

As I understand this, if your turning Left you do not get the right of way over anybody.

Turning at intersections

141.

Left turn, across path of approaching vehicle

(5) No driver or operator of a vehicle in an intersection shall turn left across the path of a vehicle approaching from the opposite direction unless he or she has afforded a reasonable opportunity to the driver or operator of the approaching vehicle to avoid a collision. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 141 (5).


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:03 am 
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136. (1) Every driver approaching a stop sign at an intersection,
(a) shall stop his/her vehicle at a marked stop line or, if none, then immediately before entering the nearest crosswalk or, if none, then immediately before entering the intersection; and

(b) shall yield the right of way to traffic in the intersection or approaching the intersection on another highway so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard and, having so yielded the right of way, may proceed.

Acquiring right of way
(2) Every driver approaching, on another highway, an intersection referred to in subsection (1), shall yield the right of way to every driver who has complied with the requirements of subsection (1)

*********************
In the scenario, Car "A" has already complied with the requirements of subsection 1 by stopping, Car "B" is approaching, therefore Car "A" has "Acquired the right of way".

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:09 am 
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I think what you remember and want is this:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... .4.3.shtml

At any intersection where you want to turn left or right, you must yield the right-of-way. If you are turning left, you must wait for approaching traffic to pass or turn and for pedestrians in or approaching your path to cross. If you are turning right, you must wait for pedestrians to cross if they are in or approaching your path (Diagram 2-17).


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:00 pm 
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Frozenover wrote:
I think what you remember and want is this:

http://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dandv/ ... .4.3.shtml

At any intersection where you want to turn left or right, you must yield the right-of-way. If you are turning left, you must wait for approaching traffic to pass or turn and for pedestrians in or approaching your path to cross. If you are turning right, you must wait for pedestrians to cross if they are in or approaching your path (Diagram 2-17).


That is guidelines ONLY...NOT the law as written.

2-17 does not indicate any of the intersection controlled by anything.

2-16 again address a vehicle coming to an intersection
"At an intersection with stop signs at all corners, you must yield the right-of-way to the first vehicle to come to a complete stop"

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:09 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
"At an intersection with stop signs at all corners, you must yield the right-of-way to the first vehicle to come to a complete stop"


Agreed, but this is not the situation being asked about.

The situation is:
DB Cooper wrote:
"East and westbound directions are controlled by stop signs, and the north and southbound directions are through traffic."


The cars in question are East & Westbound.


I see this as follows:

Car A has been waiting to turn left, but due to North / South Bound traffic continues to yield the right of way per 136(1)(b).

Car B arrives after Car A and waits to turn Right, it also yields to North / South Bound traffic also per 136(1)(b).

Now there is a break in North / South Bound traffic, who gets the Right of Way?

Since Car A never met the conditions of 136(1) it cannot claim Right of Way under 136(2) over Car B. Since Car B is turning Right it Claims Right of Way under 141(5) (as per 2-17 of the drivers handbook).

Likewise if Car C pulls up behind Car B and is also turning right, Car A still has not achieved 136(1) and will need to continue to wait.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:24 pm 
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Frozenover wrote:
The situation is:
DB Cooper wrote:
"East and westbound directions are controlled by stop signs, and the north and southbound directions are through traffic."


The cars in question are East & Westbound.


I see this as follows:

Car A has been waiting to turn left, but due to North / South Bound traffic continues to yield the right of way per 136(1)(b).

Car B arrives after Car A and waits to turn Right, it also yields to North / South Bound traffic also per 136(1)(b).

Now there is a break in North / South Bound traffic, who gets the Right of Way?

Since Car A never met the conditions of 136(1) it cannot claim Right of Way under 136(2) over Car B. Since Car B is turning Right it Claims Right of Way under 141(5) (as per 2-17 of the drivers handbook).

Likewise if Car C pulls up behind Car B and is also turning right, Car A still has not achieved 136(1) and will need to continue to wait.


Again driver's handbook is not law!


136(1)(a) Car A has met conditions of this section by stopping at a stop sign at an intersecting hwy
136(1)(b) Car A can not claim right of way over the N/S traffic as it is traffic in the intersection, however may proceed when that traffic (N/S) is clear
Acquiring right of way -
136(2) Car B is approaching the intersection, (same one as Car A is at), shall yield the right of way to every driver (Car A) who has complied with the requirements of subsection (1).

Therefore, Car A is now the legitimate car on the thru hwy and would issue an offence notice to Car B, "fail to yield the traffic on thru hwy".

HTA 141(5) does not apply - that is a vehicle "in an intersection". As in waiting in the middle of the intersection to turn.

We will probably agree to disagree but that is how I would treat the situation.

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 4:49 pm 
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hwybear wrote:
We will probably agree to disagree but that is how I would treat the situation.


You have convinced me that Car A has the right of way.

And now that I know this I'm going to be way more aggressive in exercising my right of way when I'm making Lefts.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:30 pm 
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that is my articulation of the section(s).....any others thoughts?

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 22, 2010 7:35 pm 
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First car to the line has right-of-way... at least that's the way I read it... (Section 136 of the HTA.)

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* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:41 am 
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Wow- this is more complicated than I thought.
Thanks to hwybear & Frozenover for your thoughts and insight - it really has me wondering now.

hwybear - you mention that:

Acquiring right of way -
136(2) Car B is approaching the intersection, (same one as Car A is at), shall yield the right of way to every driver (Car A) who has complied with the requirements of subsection (1).

What i'm looking for, is, if car "B" has complied with subsection (1) and has been waiting (not approaching) the intersection as well as Car A for the north/south traffic to clear, would this still give Car A right of way?

Kevin.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 11:42 am 
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DB Cooper wrote:
What i'm looking for, is, if car "B" has complied with subsection (1) and has been waiting (not approaching) the intersection as well as Car A for the north/south traffic to clear, would this still give Car A right of way?


Yes it would.

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* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 28, 2010 10:01 am 
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I've always been confused when there is a pedestrian.
I may stop at a 4-way and have to wait for a pedestrian.
If it's an older person then a lot of action can happen at the other 3 stops before my way is clear again.
Once that pedestrian is gone it is now my turn over everyone else's?
I think it should be but the other cars never seem to agree...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 1:52 pm 
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Radar Identified wrote:
DB Cooper wrote:
What i'm looking for, is, if car "B" has complied with subsection (1) and has been waiting (not approaching) the intersection as well as Car A for the north/south traffic to clear, would this still give Car A right of way?


Yes it would.


1. Please clarify - So long as Car A was still the first to comply with Subsection (1);

-or-

If Car B was first at the intersection waiting to make its right and Car A drives up, Car A must yield to Car B in accordance with Subsection (1)?

2. Car B is first at the intersection waiting to make its right turn, which is not prohibited at red lights at this intersection. Car A arrives to a "left turn only" advance green and proceeds. There is only one lane each way going N/S-bound. Car B makes a right into same lane because Car B was first at the intersection as stated in Subsection (1) and cars collide. Who is at fault if a collision occurs, Car A for not yielding, or Car B for not recognizing that Advance Green left turn signal gives Car A the right of way?


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 5:03 pm 
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Marquisse wrote:
Radar Identified wrote:
DB Cooper wrote:
What i'm looking for, is, if car "B" has complied with subsection (1) and has been waiting (not approaching) the intersection as well as Car A for the north/south traffic to clear, would this still give Car A right of way?


Yes it would.


1. Please clarify - So long as Car A was still the first to comply with Subsection (1);

-or-

If Car B was first at the intersection waiting to make its right and Car A drives up, Car A must yield to Car B in accordance with Subsection (1)?


Which ever vehicle arrives first and complies with all requirements has the right of way. This is pertaining to intersections controlled by a stop sign.

Quote:
2. Car B is first at the intersection waiting to make its right turn, which is not prohibited at red lights at this intersection. Car A arrives to a "left turn only" advance green and proceeds. There is only one lane each way going N/S-bound. Car B makes a right into same lane because Car B was first at the intersection as stated in Subsection (1) and cars collide. Who is at fault if a collision occurs, Car A for not yielding, or Car B for not recognizing that Advance Green left turn signal gives Car A the right of way?


In this scenario Car A with the advance green has the right of way. Car B has to stop, but before it can make a right turn, part of the excemption to turn right on a red is that car B must "yield the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching, which in this case is Car A.
If Car B can also see a "left arrow" in the direction they are facing, that car B can not turn right at all.

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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