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Escalating Sanctions for hybrid drivers
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:19 pm 
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Hi everyone,

I tried the search but didn't find much on this topic, so I would like to know if anyone here can clarify this situation for me.

A friend of mine got his M2 in June of 2009, and has held a full G license for 6-7 years. AFAIK he has pleaded guilty to two minor (speeding) tickets, one in sept 2009, the other in Jan 2010. (Haven't seen an abstract yet so I'm not sure of dates/if there were any points associated with either of these).

In Aug 2010, was stopped and ticketed for 20-over, 3 points, coming to trial soon.

My question for y'all is how this driver will be affected by Escalating Sanctions in the following scenario.

1) If he has any points against his license from convictions prior to the August 1st introduction of escalating sanctions, and he picks up 3 points, does the license still get suspended? Or does the 4-point rule apply only to convictions for offences committed after Aug 1st?

2) None of the offences were committed while riding a motorcycle, all were in cars. Does that have any bearing on the sanctions?

3) If his license qualifies for suspension under the new Escalating Sanctions, does only the M2 Class get suspended, or do they suspend the G class as well?

Thanks!
slyk

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SLYK
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"Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny." - Edmund Burke"

"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal" - MLK Jr.


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Re: Escalating Sanctions for hybrid drivers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:38 pm 
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Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
Here's the info on the MTO website.

Quote:
Escalating Sanctions for all Novice Drivers (G1, G2, M1, M2)

Effective August 1, 2010, novice or hybrid drivers (drivers that hold a novice licence and full licence, e.g., G/M2) will be subject to Novice Driver Escalating Sanctions. These sanctions will apply if, within a five year period, you:
* are convicted of violating any of the graduated licensing conditions;
* are convicted of HTA offences that result in 4 or more demerit points; or,
* receive a court-ordered suspension for an HTA offence that would have resulted in 4 or more demerit points

Hybrid Drivers - Drivers that hold a novice licence and full licence, e.g., G/M2.

The penalties for Escalating Sanctions are as follows:
* 30-day licence suspension for the first occurrence; both full and novice driver’s licence will be suspended.
* 90-day licence suspension for the second occurrence; both full and novice driver’s licence will be suspended.
* Novice Licence cancellation for the third occurrence. Upon a third occurrence, your novice driver’s licence will be cancelled. You must re-apply to the graduated licensing program by passing a vision and knowledge test and paying all licensing fees. After you pass these tests, you will enter Level One and get a Class G1 licence. You must serve all the Level One and Level Two waiting periods and start as a new driver. You will not receive any driving experience credit from your previous novice class. Your full driver’s licence class will not be cancelled and a new licence card will be issued with your full class.


So yes, he has a hybrid licence and will face sanctions regardless of vehicle being operated at the time of the offence. Both licences will be suspended.

That being said, the way I read the actual regulation (340/94) versus the MTO page, you have to be convicted of a single offence that carries 4 or more demerit points. They don't actually care about what your point total is until you hit 6 points. So if you're friend already had 2 points on his record, gets 3 more for 20 over, he'd still be safe with just 5 points. He'll get a warning letter, but no possible suspension until 6 points.


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Re: Escalating Sanctions for hybrid drivers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:09 pm 
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Location: South Western Ontario
Stanton wrote:
Here's the info on the MTO website.

Quote:
Escalating Sanctions for all Novice Drivers (G1, G2, M1, M2)

Effective August 1, 2010, novice or hybrid drivers (drivers that hold a novice licence and full licence, e.g., G/M2) will be subject to Novice Driver Escalating Sanctions. These sanctions will apply if, within a five year period, you:
* are convicted of violating any of the graduated licensing conditions;
* are convicted of HTA offences that result in 4 or more demerit points; or,
* receive a court-ordered suspension for an HTA offence that would have resulted in 4 or more demerit points

Hybrid Drivers - Drivers that hold a novice licence and full licence, e.g., G/M2.

The penalties for Escalating Sanctions are as follows:
* 30-day licence suspension for the first occurrence; both full and novice driver’s licence will be suspended.
* 90-day licence suspension for the second occurrence; both full and novice driver’s licence will be suspended.
* Novice Licence cancellation for the third occurrence. Upon a third occurrence, your novice driver’s licence will be cancelled. You must re-apply to the graduated licensing program by passing a vision and knowledge test and paying all licensing fees. After you pass these tests, you will enter Level One and get a Class G1 licence. You must serve all the Level One and Level Two waiting periods and start as a new driver. You will not receive any driving experience credit from your previous novice class. Your full driver’s licence class will not be cancelled and a new licence card will be issued with your full class.


So yes, he has a hybrid licence and will face sanctions regardless of vehicle being operated at the time of the offence. Both licences will be suspended.

That being said, the way I read the actual regulation (340/94) versus the MTO page, you have to be convicted of a single offence that carries 4 or more demerit points. They don't actually care about what your point total is until you hit 6 points. So if you're friend already had 2 points on his record, gets 3 more for 20 over, he'd still be safe with just 5 points. He'll get a warning letter, but no possible suspension until 6 points.



Thanks for clarifying that!

As you can see, the MTO page suggests that if you accumulate a total of 4 points over the 5-year period, it results in a suspension. It's hard to believe that they will suspend both licenses and not just one...

Anyway, thanks again for clearing that up for me. I will pass the info along to my friend and see what he thinks. I've suggested that he get his M asap to avoid being in this sort of situation.

_________________
SLYK
-------------
"Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny." - Edmund Burke"

"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal" - MLK Jr.


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Re: Escalating Sanctions for hybrid drivers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:40 pm 
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
Again, that's just my interpretation of the regulation. I'm not a legal expert, so you may want to confirm that with someone else if you're friend's licence is riding on it.

Here's the actual section from the o reg.

Quote:
An offence under the Act set out in Column 1 of the Table to the Demerit Point Regulation for which the number of demerit points set out opposite thereto in Column 2 is four or more, regardless of whether or not demerit points have been recorded.


Not sure if your friend's speeding ticket has already been reduced or not, but if he can get it reduced to 15 over by the Crown there will be no demerit points.

Slyk wrote:
Anyway, thanks again for clearing that up for me. I will pass the info along to my friend and see what he thinks. I've suggested that he get his M asap to avoid being in this sort of situation.


FYI if he does upgrade to a full M, any convictions for offences that occurred while he was still a novice will have applicable novice suspensions applied to them.


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Re: Escalating Sanctions for hybrid drivers
PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:53 pm 
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Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:59 pm
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Location: South Western Ontario
Stanton wrote:
Again, that's just my interpretation of the regulation. I'm not a legal expert, so you may want to confirm that with someone else if you're friend's licence is riding on it.

Here's the actual section from the o reg.

Quote:
An offence under the Act set out in Column 1 of the Table to the Demerit Point Regulation for which the number of demerit points set out opposite thereto in Column 2 is four or more, regardless of whether or not demerit points have been recorded.


FYI, not sure if you're friend's speeding ticket has already been reduced or not, but if he can it reduced to 15 over by the Crown there will be no demerit points.


Thanks :) I looked up the reg after reading your post and found that section. It seems to read how you've described it, but perhaps it might be worth checking out further. I wonder who the legitimate authority to ask would be? Maybe someone at the crown's office or at the MTO?

We are hoping to get the ticket reduced to 15 over (which is really not a stretch from 20 over), but the depending on the disclosure, the crown might not agree to it. Also, i'm not sure if the ticket was reduced at the roadside (my friend doesnt remember, but he thinks it might have been reduced from 25 over to 20 over, which IIRC is just a cost reduction and falls in the same points bracket, making it BS), but in any case, the local crown's office is really stingy on making deals.

_________________
SLYK
-------------
"Bad laws are the worst sort of tyranny." - Edmund Burke"

"Never forget that everything Hitler did in Germany was legal" - MLK Jr.


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