Definition of "lane" for 142(1)

Moderators: admin, hwybear, Radar Identified, Reflections, Decatur, bend

User avatar
hwybear
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2933
Joined:
Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!

Moderator

Unread post by hwybear on

alexo wrote:More or less. Cop's notes say I "cut the corner". Interesting since he arrived an hour after the fact..
Does not really matter how long after that the police arrive. Once arriving the officer will begin by talking to drivers, looking at physical evidence etc and try to determine what heppened. Then mandatory to complete a "Traffic Collision Report", and make notes when necessary to "refresh" the officers memory.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


alexo
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 22
Joined:
Location: Ontario

Unread post by alexo on

Thanks for your reply hwybear.
hwybear wrote:I would be guess that HTA 148 applies to the description provided.

Passing meeting vehicles - vehicle on highway meeting another shall turn out to the right from centre of roadway, allowing the other vehicle one-half of the roadway
That sounds about right.
However, I was charged with violating 142(1) and not 148.

I believe that the best strategy would be to contest it on that grounds.
What do you guys, think?

I do not think that they can amend it during the trial as that would be a completely different charge. Or could they?

Thank you.


alexo
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 22
Joined:
Location: Ontario

Unread post by alexo on

hwybear wrote:
alexo wrote:More or less. Cop's notes say I "cut the corner". Interesting since he arrived an hour after the fact..
Does not really matter how long after that the police arrive. Once arriving the officer will begin by talking to drivers, looking at physical evidence etc and try to determine what heppened. Then mandatory to complete a "Traffic Collision Report", and make notes when necessary to "refresh" the officers memory.
The interesting part is that the "Traffic Collision Report" I got on the spot (with the ticket) has quite a number of differences from the copy I got in the disclosure. That one was dated 6 months after the fact.

Do those reports have any legal significance or is it only the information on the ticket that counts?

Thank you.


lawmen
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 256
Joined:
Location: Planet X

Unread post by lawmen on

alexo wrote:Thanks for your reply hwybear.
hwybear wrote:I would be guess that HTA 148 applies to the description provided.

Passing meeting vehicles - vehicle on highway meeting another shall turn out to the right from centre of roadway, allowing the other vehicle one-half of the roadway
That sounds about right.
However, I was charged with violating 142(1) and not 148.

I believe that the best strategy would be to contest it on that grounds.
What do you guys, think?

I do not think that they can amend it during the trial as that would be a completely different charge. Or could they?

Thank you.
Yes the court can amend it.

You must also raise an objection to an information or certificate for a defect apparent on its face before you plead, and thereafter only by leave of the court.

Read the link below, ss. 34 and 90 in repect to amending and 36 in regards to objecting to a defect.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... _e.htm#BK7

If you have a fatal error on a ticket; don't respond to it at all. The court cannot fix errors when you don't reply to it. If convicted despite the error, you can win it on appeal.

Courts can only fix errors when you request a trial.
Without Justice there's JUST US


alexo
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 22
Joined:
Location: Ontario

Unread post by alexo on

lawmen wrote:
alexo wrote:However, I was charged with violating 142(1) and not 148.

I believe that the best strategy would be to contest it on that grounds.
What do you guys, think?

I do not think that they can amend it during the trial as that would be a completely different charge. Or could they?
Yes the court can amend it.
That seems wrong. I understand amending erroneous facts but changing the whole charge? "I'm sorry your worship, we'd like to amend the charge from trespassing to theft".

Wouldn't that run afoul of 34(4)(c) and (d)?
Considerations on amendment
(4) The court shall, in considering whether or not an amendment should be made, consider,
(a) the evidence taken on the trial, if any;
(b) the circumstances of the case;
(c) whether the defendant has been misled or prejudiced in the defendant’s defence by a variance, error or omission; and
(d) whether, having regard to the merits of the case, the proposed amendment can be made without injustice being done.
lawmen wrote:You must also raise an objection to an information or certificate for a defect apparent on its face before you plead, and thereafter only by leave of the court.

Read the link below, ss. 34 and 90 in respect to amending and 36 in regards to objecting to a defect.
That doesn't seem to be a defect but a different charge. Or am I wrong about it?
lawmen wrote:If you have a fatal error on a ticket; don't respond to it at all. The court cannot fix errors when you don't reply to it. If convicted despite the error, you can win it on appeal.

Courts can only fix errors when you request a trial.
As I mentioned before, the trial date is almost upon me.

The way I see it, and please correct me if I am wrong, is that I got charged with an offence that I did not commit. Whether I committed a different offence or not is immaterial since I am not charged with it.

Thanks.


lawmen
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 256
Joined:
Location: Planet X

Unread post by lawmen on

Changing the charge is a breach of our Charter rights. But the court still does it and no lawyer to my knowledge has challenged them on this constitutionally.

Is is afoul of 34 blah blah, but the court can also just give you an adjournment to come back another day with your new defence. It's pathetic.

See ss. 35 and 37.

To me, you were charged with the wrong offence, that's a defect. But now that you requested a trial, again, the court can fix the ticket.

When is your trial date?
Without Justice there's JUST US


User avatar
Bookm
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 632
Joined:
Location: Stratford, Ontario

Unread post by Bookm on

Sure the Court COULD allow the ticket to be amended, but you would want to object to this. You have prepared your case based on the information shown on the charging document. Your court date is now and you are prepared to proceed. It is not your fault the crown is not prepared. As backup, you might want to have your lawyer print you out the case laws for:
R. v. Schepens, supra, note 69
R. v. Oakcrest Food Stores (1976) Ltd. (1982), 17 M.V.R. 103 (B.C.S.C.)
I don't have them personally but I have a book on HTA offences and it lists these cases under "Defects for which no correction was allowed... Failing to properly identify the offence the accused stands charged with".

You would present the case laws to the court at your trial. Very few JP's will rule AGAINST the rulings of a higher court.


alexo
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 22
Joined:
Location: Ontario

Unread post by alexo on

Hi Bookm, thank you for the reply.
Bookm wrote:Sure the Court COULD allow the ticket to be amended, but you would want to object to this. You have prepared your case based on the information shown on the charging document. Your court date is now and you are prepared to proceed. It is not your fault the crown is not prepared. As backup, you might want to have your lawyer print you out the case laws for:
R. v. Schepens, supra, note 69
R. v. Oakcrest Food Stores (1976) Ltd. (1982), 17 M.V.R. 103 (B.C.S.C.)
I don't have them personally but I have a book on HTA offences and it lists these cases under "Defects for which no correction was allowed... Failing to properly identify the offence the accused stands charged with".
Thanks for the cases, I'll look them up.
What's the name of the book?


User avatar
Bookm
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 632
Joined:
Location: Stratford, Ontario

Unread post by Bookm on

The Law of Traffic Offences, 2nd Edition


User avatar
hwybear
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2933
Joined:
Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!

Moderator

Unread post by hwybear on

alexo wrote:The interesting part is that the "Traffic Collision Report" I got on the spot (with the ticket) has quite a number of differences from the copy I got in the disclosure. That one was dated 6 months after the fact..
The roadside copy is just basic info to share amongst drivers, the submitted copy has diagrams, check boxes on the side, supervisor signature, if witness, towing info etc.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


alexo
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 22
Joined:
Location: Ontario

Unread post by alexo on

hwybear wrote:
alexo wrote:The interesting part is that the "Traffic Collision Report" I got on the spot (with the ticket) has quite a number of differences from the copy I got in the disclosure. That one was dated 6 months after the fact..
The roadside copy is just basic info to share amongst drivers, the submitted copy has diagrams, check boxes on the side, supervisor signature, if witness, towing info etc.
Is it normal procedure to file it half a year after the fact and invent some information (e.g., speed of vehicles)?


lawmen
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 256
Joined:
Location: Planet X

Unread post by lawmen on

You'll nail him on these points when you examine and cross-examine him. You can get his notes from the exact day of the incident and compare them to what he wrote in the report 6 months later. When they don't match, his credibility will be worthless.

The cop laid the wrong charge, his notes and reports are bogus and yet the government wants to spend thousands of dollars on the cop, crown and justice to hear this case than cannot be won.
Without Justice there's JUST US


User avatar
hwybear
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2933
Joined:
Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!

Moderator

Unread post by hwybear on

alexo wrote:
hwybear wrote:
alexo wrote:The interesting part is that the "Traffic Collision Report" I got on the spot (with the ticket) has quite a number of differences from the copy I got in the disclosure. That one was dated 6 months after the fact..
The roadside copy is just basic info to share amongst drivers, the submitted copy has diagrams, check boxes on the side, supervisor signature, if witness, towing info etc.
Is it normal procedure to file it half a year after the fact and invent some information (e.g., speed of vehicles)?
About 3/4 way down is the officers signature and DATE to the right is the supervisor signature and DATE. How does this compare to the date of the collision at the top?
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


alexo
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 22
Joined:
Location: Ontario

Unread post by alexo on

Hello Bear,
hwybear wrote:About 3/4 way down is the officers signature and DATE to the right is the supervisor signature and DATE. How does this compare to the date of the collision at the top?
The Officer's signature and date is 6 months after the "accident date"
The supervisor's signature & date are missing (not filled in).


User avatar
hwybear
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2933
Joined:
Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!

Moderator

Unread post by hwybear on

alexo wrote:
hwybear wrote:About 3/4 way down is the officers signature and DATE to the right is the supervisor signature and DATE. How does this compare to the date of the collision at the top?
The Officer's signature and date is 6 months after the "accident date"
The supervisor's signature & date are missing (not filled in).
Don't understand what is happening then...sorry!




Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


Post Reply

Return to “General Talk”