Stopping for a school bus

I have taken the school bus for years and i know when the driver sees someone pass while their stop sign is out they will write down the license plate #. A couple of days ago I was driving home and the school bus was just stopping and it's sign was just starting to come out. I was right in front of the bus and slowed down instinctively but decided i could not stop safely b/c of ice and there was another driver behind me so i proceeded. I do not think i blatantly ran the sign b/c if i had stopped i would have stopped at the end of the bus, just because of the timing of when the bus driver had started putting out the stop sign. As i was slowing down i notice the driver was staring at me and I was curious if she did report me, how does fighting a ticket like this work? I mean there was no way i could stop ahead of the bus and she had started putting out the sign as i was passing the bus. Any thoughts?

Duty of drivers when school bus stopped

175.(11) Every driver or street car operator, when meeting on a highway, other than a highway with a median strip, a stopped school bus that has its overhead red signal-lights flashing, shall stop before reaching the bus and shall not proceed until the bus moves or the overhead red signal-lights have stopped flashing. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 175 (11).

Idem

175.(12) Every driver or street car operator on a highway, when approaching from the rear a stopped school bus that has its overhead red signal-lights flashing, shall stop at least twenty metres before reaching the bus and shall not proceed until the bus moves or the overhead red signal-lights have stopped flashing. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 175 (12).

The way I read it, it IS LEGAL to pass a bus that is still in motion. Bus drivers routinely throw their stop sign out long before they have come to a complete stop. I know I'd ignore it if I was in motion along side a bus that was also in motion.

You didn't get a ticket..so why worry?

How can you get a ticket based on some else's claim or report? You can't! It Makes no sense. So no need to worry about this.

admin wrote:

How can you get a ticket based on some else's claim or report? You can't!

That happens on every collision with a charge. All evidence from someon other than the police. Similiar to someone "cut me off" calls in to police and maintains sight until stopped by police. Statement to police and a charge can be laid based on the evidence of the other driver.

A school bus one is even easier now. All the bus driver has to do is give the plate, the vehicle failed to stop and the registered owner will be issued a ticket. If that goes to court, it is the bus drivers evidence of date/time.

I do think a "law" could be put in to make it mandatory that school bus would have a amber light come on as they brake to give drivers a heads up they will be stopping and red lights will soon be flashing....kind of like a stop light.

hwybear wrote:

admin wrote:

How can you get a ticket based on some else's claim or report? You can't!

That happens on every collision with a charge. All evidence from someon other than the police. Similiar to someone "cut me off" calls in to police and maintains sight until stopped by police. Statement to police and a charge can be laid based on the evidence of the other driver.

A school bus one is even easier now. All the bus driver has to do is give the plate, the vehicle failed to stop and the registered owner will be issued a ticket. If that goes to court, it is the bus drivers evidence of date/time.

I can understand if it was part of an accident, but how can you prove in court that somebody ran a red light, after the fact? No police saw the incident, but a random passerby was the only Witness.

What is the credibility of that Witness? What if he was biased or had a grudge?

I think proving this case for the crown would not be so easy.

This is very confusing to me actually now that I've done some research about it.

->OCT '08

"Under the new regulations, a police officer does not need

to witness the vehicle passing a stopped school bus with

its upper red lights flashing for charges to be laid

against the vehicle owner. Citizens who witness such

occurrences can contact the police and provide the make,

model, colour of vehicle; licence number; location, date

and time of the incident; and, if possible, a description

of the driver."

http://www.ottawapolice.ca/en/serving_o ... 08&pm=true

i guess it's their word against whoever they report.

i'm only worrying because i don't know what that bus driver was thinking and it's a pretty hefty consequence to be convicted of this. thats all.

Okk...That is something!

I would love to see a public case about this.

I guess we all should worry now

The Highway Traffic Act says, in a fairly convoluted way, that if an officer did not charge you at the roadside, you can get a ticket similar to a red-light camera ticket or photo radar ticket. It is sent to the registered owner. If you are charged as the owner (ie. cop didn't stop), no summons is issued. The max fine is $2000, but if charged under this provision (as the owner), similar to red light camera and photo radar tickets, there are no demerit points and your insurance company will not be notified. I think the set fine is $400 if charged as the owner.

I can't see where it says, "you can't pass a school bus with it's flashing lights on". Sure it applies if the bus is STOPPED or if you are more than 20 metres behind it.

What do you do if you are under 20 metres by the time the bus stops?? I would deduce that you can pass legally. The bus driver would have the responsibility of NOT opening the door until it is clear that all cars have stopped.

Why are we so quick to believe a school bus driver over the ticketed driver??

A very confusing scenario with a VERY nasty penalty.

Bookm wrote:

Why are we so quick to believe a school bus driver over the ticketed driver??

That's what I would like to know too.

admin wrote:

Bookm wrote:

Why are we so quick to believe a school bus driver over the ticketed driver??

That's what I would like to know.

I would suggest drivers drive more cautiously around the school bus, it is small kids after all. Rather the others around error in the side of caution. Any school bus I have ever seen also ensures traffic is a reasonable distance away before putting on the reds. A lot use 4 ways to let drivers know they are about to stop

admin wrote:

I can understand if it was part of an accident, but how can you prove in court that somebody ran a red light, after the fact? No police saw the incident, but a random passerby was the only Witness. .

Still the same as a collision, no police saw the incident, it is after the fact the charge is still laid.

Even for collisions that go to court, police have little to add as a statement. Driver 1 was so and so, Driver 2 was so and so. Road looks like this, weather was that. Damage on Vehicles was here (to which each person could also state)

Yea I agree, and of course you should drive safely around children and school buses.

But I don't agree entirely with the Liberty extended to Bus Drivers. Why is their word and judgment becoming a Convicting factor for the other drivers?

This kind of ticket, I would think, would be easy to fight because of the circumstances. Only a cop's word would be taken over your own, even though a bus driver might have a little bit more favour in the eyes of the judge. But it all depends on the defence lawyer... if you argue you have no choice but to pass because otherwise you would've slammed into the back of the bus, it doesn't bode well for you, because you're supposed to have sufficient space between the vehicle in front of you at all times, and that distance depends on the road conditions. You are required to travel only at speeds at which you can stop for any hazard safely, and if you were forced to pass the bus, regardless of how quickly it stopped, it would be deemed you were driving recklessly.

oh i definitely agree about using extra caution around school buses. however in a situation like i described i was not behind the bus, i was going the opposite way. when the driver started to put out the flashing sign i was at a point where i could not stop before the front of the bus safely. i did instinctively slow down quite a bit so as i actually passed under the sign (now fully out) and the driver's window it may have seemed to her like i went through the sign deliberately.

oh well thanks for the info.

They just wanted an extra level of caution to be used around school buses when they introduced this legislation. However, the ticket can be fought like any other charge under the HTA. They'll need the bus driver to testify, if she reported you and you were charged. Given the circumstances, I wouldn't worry too much about it. In the event you do get a ticket, then you need to start worrying about things like whether you want to challenge it or not, getting disclosure, etc.

You mentioned there was a vehicle behind you. Did he stop?

yes the driver behind me did come to a stop, but if i had really slammed on my brakes [and i have amazing brakes] to try to stop before i got near the front of the bus. he would have rear ended me for sure.

b/c i slowed down he was able to slow down behind me and stop. but i would not have been able to slow down and make a complete full stop or i'd be stopped right alongside the bus under the blinking red lights. If I had really slammed on my brakes to stop right away to try and stop before the front end of the bus i would have gotten rear ended. keep in mind it's a 2 way street and me and the bus are heading opposite ways.

But I don't agree entirely with the Liberty extended to Bus Drivers. Why is their word and judgment becoming a Convicting factor for the other drivers?

Most school bus drivers I ever had were not the most upstanding members of the community. Nice people, but grumpy due to the kids, me included, wanting to get to the end of their route. Not always perfect witnesses.

Reflections wrote:

Not always perfect witnesses.

If a ticket is issued, and it goes to court, that's the key point right there.

The circumstances described in this thread really don't make it seem like it was something where the police would even bother laying a charge, but I don't know what standard they use, so...

Something very similar happened to me, in that I was approaching a school bus from the oppossite direction, when she suddenly slowed and put the flashers on, with the stop sign being shown immediately as she came to a stop. It was very close, and I had only started to slow down when I realized that it was too close to be able to stop in front of the bus. There was very little warning and perhaps some confusion on my part as it was totally unexpected in that location ...

This was for pick up of 1 small child across the street waiting in front of a house ... at 4:00

This was a few days ago now (5) ... and I've been worried sick that she could of taken down my license number and the fear that I could recieve a large fine and points on my driving record !!!!

I would hate to have the fine and points on my record after having a clean record without any points/tickets for 40 years ... if she were to decide that I should of been able to stop in that situation ...

Where would I find the exact wording as to when a ticket is issued to the owner of the vehicle or the driver, and if points are assessed against the driver that would effect my insurance premiums ??

If you were not stopped at the scene by the police, a charge against the vehicle owner does not have demerit points since they could not identify the driver. It also would not affect your insurance premiums. Failing to stop for a school bus where the owner is charged also does not go on your driver record. You would, in the unlikely event that the driver took down your licence number, be facing a large fine ($490) - but nothing more. The legal part is section 175 of the Highway Traffic Act.

In that situation, no one expects drivers to absolutely demolish the brakes with smoke pouring off the asphalt to try to stop. If you're driving in a reasonable and prudent manner, and you noticed the moment the school bus activated its flashers and were unable to stop in time despite that, you're in the clear.

If, however, the school bus had been stopped for a few seconds, enough so that the children could've started to cross the street or get out of the bus, or that a normal driver should've stopped, you're toast...

In my training for a School Bus driver, we must apply the red alternating lights within 30 meters. And we can not open the door, even when stopped, unless we look left, and right for vehicles beforehand. It's all about the safety of the children!!!!

I'm a school bus driver. The stop sign comes out on my bus when I open the door. I open the door when I am stopped. I, nor any other driver, would not drive with an open door. If you think we "throw the sign out early" then you are mistaken. You are just trying to beat the stop. If you see the lights flashing, you come to a stop. END OF STORY. Stop trying to justify your crappy driving.

Fair enough, but in order to retain control of the vehicle the safest option may be to continue driving and not attempt an emergency braking procedure.

In a perfect world you would stop in a straight line. In reality, you could skid left or right and create the conditions under which an accident is likely to occur.