School Bus lets my kids out at a 4 way stop sign

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jjjj
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School Bus lets my kids out at a 4 way stop sign

by: jjjj on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:47 am

so my kids are let out right at a 4 way stop.
the bus is facing north.
when she has her lights on do the east west cars have to stay stopped?
of course the north south do or they would be passing the bus.

The kids are trying to cross the street but the east west cars don't seem to care.

I called the bus company and was told that at a 4 way stop ALL CARS MUST STAY STOP when the bus has her lights flashing and arm out.

I know if I ask this to 3 different cops I'll get 3 different answers.

thanks


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by: Simon Borys on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 9:43 am

jjjj wrote:I know if I ask this to 3 different cops I'll get 3 different answers.
Of course. The reason being that the legislation is not clear. The 2 relevant sections of the HTA are 175 (11) and 175 (12).

(11) Every driver or street car operator, when meeting on a highway, other than a highway with a median strip, a stopped school bus that has its overhead red signal-lights flashing, shall stop before reaching the bus and shall not proceed until the bus moves or the overhead red signal-lights have stopped flashing.

(12) Every driver or street car operator on a highway, when approaching from the rear a stopped school bus that has its overhead red signal-lights flashing, shall stop at least twenty metres before reaching the bus and shall not proceed until the bus moves or the overhead red signal-lights have stopped flashing.

Subsection 12 uses the phrase "approaching from the rear", which is clear. When the bus ahead of you stops, your obligations are set out in subsection 12.

Subsection 11 is less clear. It refers to "meeting on a highway, other than a highway with a median strip". Meeting could mean meeting from the rear, meeting as in approaching head on, or meeting as in approaching from the side. Clearly meeting from the rear is excluded from the interpretation because it is covered explicitly by the following subsection. It remains to be seen whether meeting applies to approaching from the side.

The arguments for the inclusion of side approaching in the definition of meeting are as follows: common sense dictates that the purpose of this section is about safety of children getting off the bus and it wouldn't be safe for cars to be making a turn and driving by a school bus that was letting kids on/off.

The arguments against the inclusion of side approaching are as follows: the section refers to a highway without a median strip, which only seems to be relevant for vehicles approaching the bus from head on, on the opposite side of the divided highway. Also, there are other sections (148(1) and 148(7)), where the term "meeting" is used, where the context makes it much clearer that it refers only to head on approach.

As you can see, it's not a cut and dry issue. It depends on the articulation of both sides and, ultimately, who is able to convince the JP that they're right.[/u]
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by: jjjj on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:45 am

Well I called PRPD and had a nice chat with an officer and he pretty much told me the east/west do not have to wait for the bus and that her flashing lights do no stop traffic in all directions.

Now on to the next issue of the cars not letting the kids cross the street when they should have the right of way.


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by: Radar Identified on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 1:35 pm

If your kids were crossing at a four-way stop, the drivers who failed to stop for them committed any (or all) of the following offences:

- Disobey Stop Sign
- Fail to Yield to Pedestrian
- Careless Driving (maybe)

The bus doesn't "freeze" the entire intersection (north/south it does), but the east/west traffic is controlled by a stop sign - and pedestrians have right-of-way in that case. (I'm assuming there's a marked crosswalk as well, right?)
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by: jjjj on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 3:53 pm

Today I decided to take some pictures of the stop and as soon as I turned on the camera a car turned in front of the bus!

Image

Image

The red car is going west, this is OK as per the Police I spoke to but NOT ok as per the lady at the School Bus Company.

Image


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by: admin on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 4:41 pm

The first picture shows a car making a left turn.

The problem with this picture is not what that car is doing, because every car would do the same thing.

As the car did stop when faced with the bus's stop sign, you can not expect a car from not making a left turn when it is their right of way to do so.

I think there is a fundamental problem of where and how this bus is dropping and picking up kids. The bus is coming wayyy to close to an intersection and is actually Confusing Traffic by doing this.

Since a school bus can choose its own stop, the school bus should simply stop further away from the intersection IMO and problem solved!


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by: jjjj on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:07 pm

The car did not stop, it passed the bus after making the turn.
Notice no brake lights on.
This happens all the time.
If you're sitting at the stop sign ready to make your left you can clearly see the red lights flashing and arm out. I'm not sure why you would go ahead and make the left turn. Unless you did not get your DL in Canada perhaps. (shrug)
admin wrote:The first picture shows a car making a left turn.

The problem with this picture is not what that car is doing, because every car would do the same thing.

As the car did stop when faced with the bus's stop sign, you can not expect a car from not making a left turn when it is their right of way to do so.

I think there is a fundamental problem of where and how this bus is dropping and picking up kids. The bus is coming wayyy to close to an intersection and is actually Confusing Traffic by doing this.

Since a school bus can choose its own stop, the school bus should simply stop further away from the intersection IMO and problem solved!


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by: jjjj on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:12 pm

Just to confirm, the silver Honda drove right through the stop sign of the bus after making the turn. This was today at 3:15pm. I took the photo myself. This goes on all the time at this bus stop/intersection.

A bus drops at 11:30am then 3:15 and then another at 3:21 every day same bust stop x 4 years.


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by: admin on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 5:30 pm

jjjj wrote:If you're sitting at the stop sign ready to make your left you can clearly see the red lights flashing and arm out. I'm not sure why you would go ahead and make the left turn. Unless you did not get your DL in Canada perhaps. (shrug)
Thats the problem. The bus should not be so close to the intersection. I can't see the fault of making a left turn, but if this is something that is always happening, maybe its not entirely the drivers here to blame.

Maybe its something wrong with how this bus stops in such a place, causing confusion.


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by: jjjj on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 10:34 pm

I agree with you on that point, Mississauga has no shortage of confused drivers.


admin wrote:
jjjj wrote:If you're sitting at the stop sign ready to make your left you can clearly see the red lights flashing and arm out. I'm not sure why you would go ahead and make the left turn. Unless you did not get your DL in Canada perhaps. (shrug)
Thats the problem. The bus should not be so close to the intersection. I can't see the fault of making a left turn, but if this is something that is always happening, maybe its not entirely the drivers here to blame.

Maybe its something wrong with how this bus stops in such a place, causing confusion.


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by: viper1 on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:35 pm

The bus driver should use some common sense.
In this case if he/she wants to stop there it should be in the middle of the intersection so everyone has to stop.

The school bus drivers have to be among the worst drivers on the road.
(for thier profession)

Just today I was going 110 on HY401 my speed 110kph I got passed by 2 school buses.(the limit for a school bus is 95 kph)

I have more stories (if needed)

You should talk to the idiot school bus driver.

They are supposed to stop the bus

Then activate the lights.

Make sure it is clear in all directions.(not at an intersection how stuupid is that)

I don't know else to say. but WOW read the school bus rules to know who is wrong.

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by: jjjj on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:40 pm

Driver(S) then because 3 different busses stop there every day. Then bus makes a left turn and stops a block away at the NEXT 4 Way Stop :!:

And it's more than one bus company so I'm going to call both of them tomorrow.


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by: jjjj on
Wed Oct 13, 2010 11:42 pm

Where can one find these rules :?:
viper1 wrote:I don't know else to say. but WOW read the school bus rules to know who is wrong.

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by: viper1 on
Fri Oct 15, 2010 9:54 pm

Costs about $20.00 for handbook.

But it seems all cars must stop while the lights are on unless divided HWY.

I haven't read it either but it has to use some common sense?

As to the speed I have seen it written on the buses.

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by: hwybear on
Sat Oct 16, 2010 5:53 am

viper1 wrote:the limit for a school bus is 95 kph) Viper1
I've never heard of this, where is this written?
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