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Another 144(18)
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:21 pm 
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HTA 144(18)

Came to a full stop at the intersection in the left turn lane, the light turned green and I pulled forward into the intersection and stopped to wait for a clearing to turn left.

A van to my left actually turned left, what I assumed was jumping the green, and I saw the officer proceed into the intersection.

The officer pulled into the intersection in front of me flashed his lights, sounded his siren and waived for me to proceed with my left turn and pull over.

I didn't notice there was a separate light for left turns.

I was unfamiliar with that intersection as I live two hours away.

Officer wrote on the ticket " Failed to stop at red light".

I admit I was wrong, but even the officer suggested I speak to the prosecutor to ask for the charge to be lessened to "signal confusion".

Do I need to attend court to contest the ticket first, or can I just contact the prosecutor's office and plead guilty to the lesser charge.

I would like to avoid driving back to Toronto from London several times. Is there any possible way I can get all this cleared up in one trip?


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Re: Another 144(18)
PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2010 6:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:31 pm
Posts: 502
jasonf wrote:
HTA 144(18)

Came to a full stop at the intersection in the left turn lane, the light turned green and I pulled forward into the intersection and stopped to wait for a clearing to turn left.

A van to my left actually turned left, what I assumed was jumping the green, and I saw the officer proceed into the intersection.

The officer pulled into the intersection in front of me flashed his lights, sounded his siren and waived for me to proceed with my left turn and pull over.

I didn't notice there was a separate light for left turns.

I was unfamiliar with that intersection as I live two hours away.

Officer wrote on the ticket " Failed to stop at red light".

I admit I was wrong, but even the officer suggested I speak to the prosecutor to ask for the charge to be lessened to "signal confusion".

Do I need to attend court to contest the ticket first, or can I just contact the prosecutor's office and plead guilty to the lesser charge.

I would like to avoid driving back to Toronto from London several times. Is there any possible way I can get all this cleared up in one trip?


1:You can go to the court on Markham road.(very busy)
There follow the line to 1rst attendance meeting.(take a #)
You will get to talk to a prosecutor and tell them what happened and what the cop said.
They might reduce your charge right there.

2:Write everything you can remember about the incident most importantly about what the cop said.
Check option 3(and do whatever it says to do)
Wait for court date.
If the cop is there try to get him to say how confusing the signals are,and that he said it could be lowered .

Either option you have to attend at least one time.

Cheers
Viper1

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Re: Another 144(18)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 9:23 am 
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Joined: Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:12 pm
Posts: 2
Thanks Viper1

I just want to make sure I have everything straight.

144 (18) being absolute liability, intent has nothing to do with a conviction. Just possibly the fine.

So my big decision is:

A, Take the first attendance meeting and say thank you very much for whatever the prosecutor offers me. If he offers me nothing then take it to court, plead guilty and beg for lenience or hope the officer doesn't attend.

B, Go to trial, hope the officer does not show up, the prosecutor offers a deal right before trial or that the judge takes pity on me.

Either way it can't get much worse than the ~$325 ticket.

One remaining question is not about guilt or innocence. I fully admit to making a mistake, but one that apparently gets made all the time according to the officer and the fact we saw someone pulled over in the same spot 20 minutes beforehand. For the fine will the JP consider the poorly designed light sequence/signage a reason to dismiss it or give a very low fine? The officer already let me know the prosecutor will likely amend the charge to something lesser.

From my discussion with the officer this intersection is a major problem. Would showing several tickets written for the same infraction at that intersection relevant and how would I prove this? I would rather not make this the officer's word against mine. Can I request other tickets from that intersection during disclosure or do I need to file a FOI request?


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Re: Another 144(18)
PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 1:59 pm 
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Posts: 2933
Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!
jasonf wrote:
Came to a full stop at the intersection in the left turn lane, the light turned green and I pulled forward into the intersection and stopped to wait for a clearing to turn left.
A van to my left actually turned left, what I assumed was jumping the green, and I saw the officer proceed into the intersection.

for others to assist you, please provide the following:
- the names of the roads at this intersection
- describe the intersection better (how many lanes there are), direction of travel etc.

Quote:
but one that apparently gets made all the time according to the officer and the fact we saw someone pulled over in the same spot 20 minutes beforehand.

If I see someone pulled over in a particular location (for whatever reason) I certainly remember that location for future, especially the same day

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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Re: Another 144(18)
PostPosted: Thu Nov 25, 2010 12:37 pm 
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Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 2881
Location: Toronto
jasonf wrote:
A, Take the first attendance meeting and say thank you very much for whatever the prosecutor offers me. If he offers me nothing then take it to court, plead guilty and beg for lenience or hope the officer doesn't attend.

B, Go to trial, hope the officer does not show up, the prosecutor offers a deal right before trial or that the judge takes pity on me.


They'll probably offer you a deal of "Improper Stop," or "Stop Wrong Place," HTA 144 (5) - at least I think that is the section.

jasonf wrote:
For the fine will the JP consider the poorly designed light sequence/signage a reason to dismiss it or give a very low fine?


Probably not, but I don't think it would hurt.

jasonf wrote:
From my discussion with the officer this intersection is a major problem. Would showing several tickets written for the same infraction at that intersection relevant and how would I prove this?


It could point to bad intersection design, or it could point to just bad driver behaviour. You'd need to show that it is not just inattentive or aggressive driving, but rather that the intersection suckers drivers into making mistakes. Unless the traffic lights are angled really weirdly, there is very poor visibility, etc., that's an uphill battle. You'd probably need the Ontario Traffic Manual and you would need to show all of the evidence that this intersection does not meet its standards. In other words, it would take a LOT of work and it still would be iffy when it goes to trial. A lot of tickets being written at one intersection does not necessarily mean that the intersection design is bad. Example: Brampton. Lots of well-designed intersections, but people simply run red lights, again and again, and again and again and again. (As shown by the fact that AllState recently revealed it is the most dangerous place in Ontario to which to drive, and the Drive Test Centre there has the highest failure rate in the province.)

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* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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