Failing to provide drivers license

caughtbythefuzz
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Failing to provide drivers license

by: caughtbythefuzz on
Sun Oct 18, 2009 6:59 pm

I was flagged by an person claiming to be an off duty police officer. When I pulled over he flashed a badge and asked for my drivers license. I asked to have an on-duty officer confirm his identity and when he (the on-duty officer) showed up, I gave him my license. I was given a ticket for failing to provide my drivers license. Any feedback or recourse?


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racer
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by: racer on
Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:03 pm

I wouldn't want to give my license to an ununiformed LEO. Off duty means that. There are rules against that.

I really think that the charge was mis-laid.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

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Squishy
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by: Squishy on
Sun Oct 18, 2009 7:38 pm

racer wrote:I wouldn't want to give my license to an ununiformed LEO. Off duty means that. There are rules against that.
There are? I was under the impression that LEO in Ontario were always "on-duty" (i.e., always had full authority). However, I would also request an on-duty officer if I ever ran into an off-duty officer. There are stories of auxiliary officers flashing the "badges" from their hat as if they were LEO, and even fake ones. I personally have no idea what a warrant card looks like, so that's not a reliable piece of ID for me either.

Maybe there are department rules against doing too much while off-duty. I know most police services prohibit off-duty carry unless it is under special circumstances, even though it is legally allowed.
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by: racer on
Sun Oct 18, 2009 8:12 pm

I was under the impression that you do not have to pull over right there and then if you cannot identify the police vehicle.

For example: you are driving alone in the middle of the night on an intercounty highway with no lights. Next thing you know a car in front lights up like a cherry XMas tree. No other indication that the car is a police car (undercover or whatnot). You can put on 4-way flashers and keep driving until you hit a gas station. That would not be considered a "Fail to stop when requested by a police officer".

Now, if this applies to police cars, then why not to the police officers?
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
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by: Squishy on
Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:42 am

racer wrote:I was under the impression that you do not have to pull over right there and then if you cannot identify the police vehicle.

For example: you are driving alone in the middle of the night on an intercounty highway with no lights. Next thing you know a car in front lights up like a cherry XMas tree. No other indication that the car is a police car (undercover or whatnot). You can put on 4-way flashers and keep driving until you hit a gas station. That would not be considered a "Fail to stop when requested by a police officer".

Now, if this applies to police cars, then why not to the police officers?
That's my understanding as well, and I would say it's very reasonable to request a uniformed officer when dealing with an off-duty officer. But I don't know if there is a rule, whether departmental or by provincial statute, against an off-duty officer requesting your licence or issuing you a ticket. I haven't read the Police Services Act enough times for much of the information to stick in my head.
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racer
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by: racer on
Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:52 am

And YOU are preparing to become a police officer. If you do not know, how would someone like me know?
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

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by: Squishy on
Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:26 pm

racer wrote:And YOU are preparing to become a police officer. If you do not know, how would someone like me know?
I'm not a cop yet, so I'm not familiar with most of the policies. You stated that there were rules against what the off-duty LEO did, so I was wondering what those rules were. If the PSA in fact restricts off-duty officers from initiating a traffic stop or something similar to that, then that helps the case as well.

GC, the Supreme Court of Canada has held that random and arbitrary traffic stops, while unconstitutional, is a reasonable limitation under Section 1 of the Charter. Thus no reason is needed to pull anyone over to check their papers.
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by: OTTLegal on
Wed Oct 21, 2009 8:35 am

The officer is within his rights to demand your drivers license even if they are off duty.

You were within your rights to ask for a uniform officer to attend.

Normally if you go to the court and show your valid drivers license the prosecutor will withdraw the charge.

Go the court within the 15 days ask for a "First Attendance" meeting with the prosecutor, explain that you just forgot it that day and usually they will withdraw the charge.

The prosecutor does not want to clog up the court system with these minor type of tickets, I suggest that you dont say too much about the circumstances of the matter as the prosecutor may think there is more to the case and want to put it to trial to allow the police officer to attend.
Chris Conway
Retired Toronto Traffic Officer, Hit & Run Squad Detective,
Breathalyzer Tech, Radar/Highway Patrol
Licenced Paralegal


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by: Off_Camber on
Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:18 pm

OTT-- i think you may have misread the original statement:

He was pulled over by an "off duty" police officer who flashed his tin.
he requested a uniformed on duty officer to attend THEN produced his license.

sounds to me like the cop was just being a jerk because he made him go to the trouble of demanding a uniformed officer attend., And wrote him a ticket for not not producing it to the off duty officer.

I wouldnt have given it to him either.
After receiving that ticket, you should have went to the station the officer worked out of and asked to see his Staff Sargeant


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