Disobey stop sign-stop on wrong place AND permit request

Dolittle
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Disobey stop sign-stop on wrong place AND permit request

by: Dolittle on
Wed Jul 08, 2009 10:18 am

I was driving to work on June 08 to pick up my carpool in local area. I am about to stop before the stop sign and turn left... suddenly, I found a police car right stop at the other cross on the right before the stop sign. After a little hesitated what to do. I braked and stopped a little over the stop sign. While the police car did not move, so I turned left. Then police car followed me. I stopped on the roadside. The police car also stopped and started flashing light. 
The officer came to me and asked for the license and permit. I gave the license and insurance card, which I thought to be a permit but not. I did not have the permit in the car. He also asked the history, I am clear but a parking ticket. Finally I got two tickets as shown in the subject. And the permit ticket can be cancelled if I show it in the police station with in 72hrs, which I did it.
After read the topics in this forum and another one, I have my wife asked for the trial option and she also filed the disclosure request form there on June 17. It is a very simple form.
There is one thing I do not know. It is that the permit request says “on the highway”, Is that include the local area?

Any suggestions are welcome!

Thanks
Dolittle


big red
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by: big red on
Wed Jul 08, 2009 11:58 pm

Hi,

It's not the location of the stop sign that is important but the stop line on the road (if there was one). The HTA says:

Stop at through highway (btw highway in the case of the act is just a road - not necessarily an actual highway so it doesn't matter that it was on a local road)

136. (1) Every driver or street car operator approaching a stop sign at an intersection,

(a) shall stop his or her vehicle or street car at a marked stop line or, if none, then immediately before entering the nearest crosswalk or, if none, then immediately before entering the intersection; and

(b) shall yield the right of way to traffic in the intersection or approaching the intersection on another highway so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard and, having so yielded the right of way, may proceed. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 136 (1).

The key here is where your vehicle was stopped in relation to that line. Best case scenario is that there is a stop line on the road and that your vehicle was stopped anywhere on this line - notice that in the above description it does not specify what part of your vehicle counts as your "vehicle"?? does it mean that the front bumper must be "at" the line? what does "at the line" mean anyway? is 2 inches back "at the line"? what about 6 inches? a foot? who knows? what part of the vehicle are they referring to? front bumper? front tires? doors? back bumper? i would argue that any of those would still qualify as the "vehicle" being "stopped at the stop line"

the best thing is to wait for the disclosure so that you can see exactly what the officer's side of the story is so that you can determine your best strategy for defense. in the meantime go to www.ticketcombat.com and check it out because there is a TON of information on there about what to do and how to do it. Also if you have time actually go to the traffic court that you will be attending and watch some trials and take notes so that you can pick up tips from those who win and see the errors of those who lose!

good luck!


Dolittle
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by: Dolittle on
Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:47 pm

Hi, Big red,

There is not stop line on that cross. I stop over the stop sign. There are around 3-5 feet between the nearest crosswalk and stop sign. It is the 1st time. I did not remember where exactly i was stopped. The better way is as you said, waiting for the disclosure. Attending some trials and watch could be best but I don't know if they open at weekend.

Thanks for reply
Dolittle


Dolittle
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by: Dolittle on
Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:34 pm

Hello, all
I received the notice of court in July, the trial will be held 14 day after today.
But I have not received the disclosure requested. Is there anything I can do now?
Thanks
Dolittle


Dolittle
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by: Dolittle on
Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:01 pm

Got the disclosure, it is unreadable to me. Asked the prosecutor, he read it to me. The key sentence is " def. veh. approx 1-1/2 ins length past curb line."
I don't know what is the curb line it is?
the prosecutor told me it is the stop line for the stop sign.
I did not remember there is a painted line there.
he said that you should go to the trail and win.

I went back and took the photos on the street.
Question:
does it mean my case will be dismissed?
because it seems to me now, the curb line is not the painted line when I checked on the internet.
Could anyone explain that to me?

Thanks a lot
Dolittle


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hwybear
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by: hwybear on
Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:02 pm

Dolittle wrote:. And the permit ticket can be cancelled if I show it in the police station with in 72hrs, which I did it. There is one thing I do not know. It is that the permit request says “on the highway”, Is that include the local area?
FYI The ticket does NOT have to be voided if shown within 24/48/72hrs etc.

Highway = every road you can drive on.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


Dolittle
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by: Dolittle on
Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:13 am

hwybear wrote:
FYI The ticket does NOT have to be voided if shown within 24/48/72hrs etc.

Highway = every road you can drive on.
Thax for reply,

before I see prosecutor, I have thought the best solution maybe pay one fee and switch charge to permit request with no point, which have been reported in this forum. It seems that the court will trust the officer's word. And the disclosure request thing can do nothing for you now according to a topic in this section. that is why i go and pickup from the court.

How about that curb line explanation? The police officer may have different explanation from the prosecutor.

Waiting for the reply

Thax again
Dolittle


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Squishy
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by: Squishy on
Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:22 am

I think "curb line" can mean whatever the officer says it means. His notes, his wording, his definitions.

I would interpret it as the "imaginary line" representing the continuation of the nearest curb of the intersecting highway.
         Image


Dolittle
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by: Dolittle on
Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:39 am

Squishy wrote:I think "curb line" can mean whatever the officer says it means. His notes, his wording, his definitions.

I would interpret it as the "imaginary line" representing the continuation of the nearest curb of the intersecting highway.

Is that means I have to go back to the prosecutor and forget about the trial.

Thank you for the reply
Dolittle


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