Disobey Official Sign

Forsidan
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Disobey Official Sign

by: Forsidan on
Sat Sep 27, 2008 2:24 pm

I received a ticket on Elgin/Cooper St. intersection (Ottawa) when I made a left turn on a one way street. I failed to notice that there was a no left sign from 3-5pm. There were two officers on bikes there to pull me over.

The ticket says, committed offense contrary to by law 2003-530 sect. 86.
I looked that up:
OBEDIENCE TO POLICE OFFICERS, SIGNS AND TRAFFIC CONTROL SIGNALS
86. Despite any provisions of this by-law, every person shall promptly obey all signals given by a traffic control signal, traffic control device or an authorized or official sign and all directions given by a police officer and nothing in this by-law shall affect the powers to regulate traffic held by the Ottawa Police Services Board.

I have decided to fight it since I have nothing to lose. I was doing some research and was hoping to find something about the distance for minimum viewing requirement? I didn't see any of that in the section above. Can I still use the 60m argument??

Any help on possible defences would be greatly appreciated.




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by: Forsidan on
Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:26 pm

I think so, aside from the no left turn sign it had 3:30 - 5:30pm but no days - as in, no left turn at any time within that specific time.
Would that be bilingual?

Thanks for your link... www.ticketcombat.com. I used that to prepare my case. Wish me luck, I go in tomorrow. Basically, I'm using the defense that I couldn't see the sign from 60m. Also, I had a friend look at it and she gave me an affadivit saying the same. Hope that's good enough!


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by: hwybear on
Sun Sep 28, 2008 7:39 pm

Forsidan wrote: Basically, I'm using the defense that I couldn't see the sign from 60m.
Curious...where you coming up with this 60m thing?
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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by: ticketcombat on
Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:05 am

forsidan wrote:I think so, aside from the no left turn sign it had 3:30 - 5:30pm but no days - as in, no left turn at any time within that specific time.
Would that be bilingual?
Discussion board rules prevent me from linking to my own site, but if you go to Step 5 and click the "bilingual defence" link on the right side you will see examples of unilingual and bilingual signs. You can also check out Reg 615 for examples. If the sign wasn't bilingual, the ticket is invalid.

Bear, you can also check out s20.8 of the Reg for wording re: visible from at least 60m.

I'm really not sure about this 60m argument Forsidan. You have to show that you measured the distance, your friend had to swear the affidavit in front of a commission or oaths, and then you have to somehow show that the minimum dimensions of the signage was insufficient to be visible at 60 metres or that there is an obstruction. You won't get the benefit of the doubt on this one so be prepared!

Good luck and good fight!
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by: hwybear on
Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:30 am

ticketcombat wrote:Bear, you can also check out s20.8 of the Reg for wording re: visible from at least 60m.
Does this just not refer to section 20 itself with pedestrian cross overs?

Seems weird if it applies to the complete regulation to jam it in the middle of all the signs?
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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by: ticketcombat on
Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:29 pm

Bear you're right. I was pointing to an example where 60m is mentioned. At the bottom of the reg under a section titled "General" is the uber clause:
45. A sign prescribed by this Regulation shall be so placed as to be visible at all times for a distance of at least 60 metres to the traffic approaching the sign. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 615, s. 45.
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by: racer on
Wed Oct 01, 2008 12:30 pm

If yer can't see the sign, then how can yer disobey it? Travelling at 72 km/hr translates into 20 m/s - you have 3 seconds to realize that the sign is there and to do something about it. If that time is cut in half, there is a good chance that the driver will not even see it.
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by: Bookm on
Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:26 pm

I was going to present this pic a few years ago when defending against a "roll stop sign" ticket. I'm leaning a tad to the right-most part of the lane (at exactly 60m) and a tree is clearly obstructing the sign. But I read somewhere that a sign must still be obeyed, even if obstructed, if it is obvious it is there. I probably would have lost my argument because it's still pretty clearly seen. I plead out (dropped two other charges) so I guess I'll never know.

Image


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by: hwybear on
Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:11 pm

Now you gave me a challenge for my next shift. B/C if that is 60m (not sure how you measured that) I can ot even read the word STOP. In our little neighbourhood, light standards are 100m apart and I see 2 on the left there.

If I remember I will approach a stop sign, when I can clearly read it, I will take a lidar reading of the distance.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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Bookm
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by: Bookm on
Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:34 am

I used the distances from the Registered Plan for the area. I could be "stretching" the 60 metres for about 3 metres or so. The lights in this pic are about 55 metres apart. Maybe non-standard because of the intersection on the left (barely in view) which makes a short block.


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