Curious from someone else point...what is the big deal BS about police notes and whether they are legible to someone else or not?

Notes are not the end all be all, notes are made to merely refresh my own personal memory of the incident and nothing more.

OR if my notes are legible but all in code that I know...again is to refresh my memory not someone else.

I don't even have to put all the details in my notes if I can remember things, so where does that leave the issue?

just curious, that's all!

hwybear wrote:Curious from someone else point...what is the big deal BS about police notes and whether they are legible to someone else or not?

Notes are not the end all be all, notes are made to merely refresh my own personal memory of the incident and nothing more.

OR if my notes are legible but all in code that I know...again is to refresh my memory not someone else.

I don't even have to put all the details in my notes if I can remember things, so where does that leave the issue?

just curious, that's all!

Well, ahem: There is case law that refers to officers notes and whether or not something took place. Case in point:http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/20 ... cj266.html.

So let's say I file for disclosure early, to get a head start on things....and can't read what officer has against me. Why waste the COURTS time with filing for this and that.......Line it up and let it go. Traffic tickets should be licky boom done and out.....

Some tickets take more then a year to come to court and I'm sure you, the officer, hand out more then 1 a year....

Reflections wrote:

Well, ahem: There is case law that refers to officers notes and whether or not something took place. Case in point:http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/20 ... cj266.html.

Read all that, but that is specific times req'd for test times.

For example if I have a follow too close offence and I maybe I put

DR: Smith, John 01JAN71

MV: 57 Chev, red, ABC123

CHG: Follow too close

PON # 12345678

and that is all my notes I have as I can recall everything else, I would not put anything else in my notes.

*******************

My notes are rather very detailed all the time, but a lot of short forms used as I do not want to waste time and miss disappointing a potential customer.

*******************

Here is my normal type of notes....

07JAN09, WED

6-137, Gen II 01-296

(disp, ram, rom, dsp p, t , spd)

test 0617hrs & _________

MOV NB HY 40 (BUSH)

OBS MV SB @ HS

GEN FAFS TR 4-5

101, 100, 101L, 102

PSD BLU VN 82KM

KSSV - 3 OCC

DR - ID ON PIDL

details of driver

MV - 06 CHEV PU WHI

ONT "ABC123"

CHG - 102-80, HTA 128

PON 123456789

R - D, B, L

T - L/M

W - CLR

PS 78KM

I think that's the price one pays when they point their finger and accuse a free citizen of committing an offence. The defendant has the right to tailor their defense to the specific evidence which will be used against them. Otherwise defense strategies would have to be bloated masses of "possible" lines of questioning that would totally swamp the courts time every time there is a trial.

So if an officer plans to use his notes, the defense has the right to see what information those notes will comprise. Otherwise, don't bring the notes (IMO).

I'm in the same boat (somewhat). I prepare a preliminary calc sketch which I use exclusively for my own use while drawing a final survey plan (basically, a reminder while drawing the final plan of my personal opinion on the legal boundaries of the subject lands). But if a job is pulled at random by the association of Ontario Land Surveyors for review (maybe 5 times a year), that "rough" calc sketch better be clearly understood by the review department. I used to freehand these sketches, but the need to be clearly understood has me now drawing them on the computer.

Bookm wrote: Otherwise defense strategies would have to be bloated masses of "possible" lines of questioning that would totally swamp the courts time every time there is a trial..

so everyone should just be pleading guilty with the proper notes!! Hence why the Quebec system works!

The notes also enable a person to understand exactly how they were caught, or other things that they may not have considered or noticed. It may cause the defendant to plead guilty, or may help their defence. Example: Defendant is driving on a sidestreet. Defendant sees police car behind him. Upon spotting police car, defendant takes careful note to drive posted speed limit and come to a full stop at all STOP signs. Upon crossing one intersection, defendant is stopped and ticketed for running STOP sign. Ticket says location is S/B DUPLEX AVENUE, for example. Defendant is furious and gets disclosure, thinking he was ticketed for not stopping after he spotted cop; in reality, notes show that defendant actually ran a stop sign four blocks prior, officer noticed from a distance, and officer only caught up to him at the intersection he THOUGHT he was ticketed for running the stop sign at. Defendant goes and seeks to plea-bargain.

Conversely, could also show that wrong vehicle was stopped, officer lost sight of it, etc. Even if notes are not clear, Bookm said it best: If an officer plans to use his notes, defence has the right to see what information is in the notes.

Radar Identified wrote: Even if notes are not clear, Bookm said it best: If an officer plans to use his notes, defence has the right to see what information is in the notes.

I completely understand that. But the notes are to refresh my memory, so I could have more than what's in my notes stored in my "pea" brain.

hwybear wrote:

Radar Identified wrote: Even if notes are not clear, Bookm said it best: If an officer plans to use his notes, defence has the right to see what information is in the notes.

I completely understand that. But the notes are to refresh my memory, so I could have more than what's in my notes stored in my "pea" brain.

But, if the question is who remembers best, then the court defaults to the officer. I'll put dollars on your donuts, yep meant that, that I remember the incident better then the officer, all except 'Bear that is. I'd say I average 1 ticket per 4-5 years, so it's a significant event to me. The officer, what 8-10 "customers" per shift. The individuality becomes blurred. I had one officer try to BS his way through a cross examination W/O notes more then a year after the "incident". JP saw through him, I think she liked me though..

I agree with most of you guys. If disclosure is requested, I think the notes should be typed up and the short forms and code expanded to something meaningful. No need for grammatically correct sentences, but "PSD BLU VN 82KM" could be expanded to "Passed blue van, 82 km/h" (I think that's what it means). Things like "(disp, ram, rom, dsp p, t , spd)" are probably meaningless to 90% of the population. Is that a systems check of the Genesis II?

However, if the officer does not need the aid of detailed notes, and thus did not take detailed notes, then I don't think there is much to complain about.

Squishy wrote: If disclosure is requested, I think the notes should be typedst of you guys. up and the short forms and code expanded to something meaningful. .

I completely disagree with typing of notes. If the words or codes are legible, no need to waste more time and cut down trees. I also toss in a short form code sheet with my notes....so if the person wants they can go thru and write out the big picture themself.

Yes, you were bang on with the blue van bit, the other was testing procedure for the basic Genesis II.

hwybear wrote:I also toss in a short form code sheet with my notes....so if the person wants they can go thru and write out the big picture themself.

That works, too. As long as there is some way to allow the defendant to understand what the notes mean instead of guessing at the codes. For instance, someone might interpret "PSD BLU VN 82 KM" as meaning "pursued blue van for 82 km" and wonder where TF these notes came from.

Hey, doesn't the code sheet get printed on paper trees, too?

Squishy wrote:

Hey, doesn't the code sheet get printed on paper trees, too?

Yes it does "Mr. Smarty Clown"

Just more questions keep poppin' up on this from other posts....so won't "hijack" those threads.

Ok, have to write notes, but if something is not in the notes it "alledgedly" did not happen, although notes are to refresh my memory only. So go the opposite route and write every little tiny tidbit miniscule pin drop of everything that happened at the event, then are saying I can not read from the notes as it is not a recollection. So write less and can fill in blanks with true recollection and cry foul as it is not in the notes.

Darned if I do, Darned if I don't.

Cops write like doctors so they can't be held accountable. If no one can read it then they can make up what it says and who's gonna know. Another example of how sloppy and lazy our police gestapo are in ontario.

my book, my notes, certainly do not have to make notes for anyone else but myself.