Hello all, To make a long story short, I recieved a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign. I did stop but the police said I didn't. He told me that I was caught on his video camera. I handed the case to X-copper but unfortunate for me, they went into bankruptcy. Court has given me extended time to find representation but I listened to my friend's advice to just represent myself and "the cop likely won't show up" phrase, but after reading topics on this forum, I realized there is much to be done to represent myself and now I don't have enough time to file for disclosure as my trial is in 2 weeks... Any advice as to how to approach this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, ^_^
Hello all,
To make a long story short, I recieved a ticket for failing to stop at a stop sign. I did stop but the police said I didn't. He told me that I was caught on his video camera. I handed the case to X-copper but unfortunate for me, they went into bankruptcy. Court has given me extended time to find representation but I listened to my friend's advice to just represent myself and "the cop likely won't show up" phrase, but after reading topics on this forum, I realized there is much to be done to represent myself and now I don't have enough time to file for disclosure as my trial is in 2 weeks... Any advice as to how to approach this would be greatly appreciated.
File for disclosure today or tomorrow. Request an adjounment once you get to your trial. You can explain the Xcopper deal and tell them the truth, you just found out you're entitled to disclosure and you want to exercise that right. You only need to stop at stop sign for 1/1000th of a second. You want to know where the op was located when he claims he saw you. The video is also important, if the cop is telling the truth about it. But since you know you stopped, the cop is lying to you.
File for disclosure today or tomorrow. Request an adjounment once you get to your trial. You can explain the Xcopper deal and tell them the truth, you just found out you're entitled to disclosure and you want to exercise that right.
You only need to stop at stop sign for 1/1000th of a second. You want to know where the op was located when he claims he saw you. The video is also important, if the cop is telling the truth about it. But since you know you stopped, the cop is lying to you.
Not IF the video shows otherwise, then the person is lying! The officer may have dedicated himself/herself to that particular intersection for the purpose of the stop sign enforcement. When some drivers become complacent with the same stop sign and "think" they have stopped".
lawmen wrote:
The video is also important, if the cop is telling the truth about it. But since you know you stopped, the cop is lying to you.
Not IF the video shows otherwise, then the person is lying!
The officer may have dedicated himself/herself to that particular intersection for the purpose of the stop sign enforcement. When some drivers become complacent with the same stop sign and "think" they have stopped".
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
I hear you, but I'm betting the cop is fibbing. Cops don't like me much, I carry a tape recorder in my car and when I'm stopped I covertly record them. There isn't any he said she said when he come to me. No, Mr. Copster, this is what you said to me and this is tone of voice you used when you said it. Problem is, I never get stopped anymore. I wonder why... 007, you suffered a lost of money from Xcopper, thus you've suffered enough and your case should be stayed. You will request a stay because it was the government who put Xcopper out of business. The same government who is now trying to convict you and screw you out of even more money.
I hear you, but I'm betting the cop is fibbing. Cops don't like me much, I carry a tape recorder in my car and when I'm stopped I covertly record them.
There isn't any he said she said when he come to me. No, Mr. Copster, this is what you said to me and this is tone of voice you used when you said it. Problem is, I never get stopped anymore. I wonder why...
007, you suffered a lost of money from Xcopper, thus you've suffered enough and your case should be stayed. You will request a stay because it was the government who put Xcopper out of business. The same government who is now trying to convict you and screw you out of even more money.
Copy that....(pardon the pun) I treat every stop like I am recorded, not only audio, but video as well. Never has been a problem. Why risk getting a complaint? Simply not worth it.
lawmen wrote:
I hear you, but I'm betting the cop is fibbing. Cops don't like me much, I carry a tape recorder in my car and when I'm stopped I covertly record them. .
Copy that....(pardon the pun)
I treat every stop like I am recorded, not only audio, but video as well. Never has been a problem. Why risk getting a complaint? Simply not worth it.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Make sure you specifically request a copy of the video in your disclosure request. If they can't find it, you can argue that evidence exonerating you has been lost. If they do find it and it shows what he claims, then request an adjournment and work on fighting the ticket BEFORE the trial proceeds. See http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic504.html for some ideas what to do. The key here is an extensive and relevant disclosure request focusing on your ability to make a proper defence. Example: You are requesting an explanation and clarification of the charge (a right under 11a of the Charter). In R. v. Araujo, 2008 ONCJ 507 the Crown is establishing a factum for extreme speed as a strict liability offence . The Crown's thinking on what constitutes a strict and absolute liability offence is pertinent to your case. You want a copy of that factum! Remember one of the points of disclosure is to NOT get it. Let the Crown cause the delays, force the focus on them. The last thing you want to do for a stop sign offence is to get into a he said, you said situation about whether you stopped. You will always lose that game. Good luck and good fight!
Dondon007 wrote:
He told me that I was caught on his video camera.
Make sure you specifically request a copy of the video in your disclosure request. If they can't find it, you can argue that evidence exonerating you has been lost.
If they do find it and it shows what he claims, then request an adjournment and work on fighting the ticket BEFORE the trial proceeds. See http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic504.html for some ideas what to do. The key here is an extensive and relevant disclosure request focusing on your ability to make a proper defence.
Example: You are requesting an explanation and clarification of the charge (a right under 11a of the Charter). In R. v. Araujo, 2008 ONCJ 507 the Crown is establishing a factum for extreme speed as a strict liability offence . The Crown's thinking on what constitutes a strict and absolute liability offence is pertinent to your case. You want a copy of that factum!
Remember one of the points of disclosure is to NOT get it. Let the Crown cause the delays, force the focus on them. The last thing you want to do for a stop sign offence is to get into a he said, you said situation about whether you stopped. You will always lose that game.
First, I want to thank you all for all the great advice in dealing with this situation. The last time I went to court, I have already told them about the X copper situation, and that I needed an interpreter just in case, since I don't know much of the law terminology, I may need him/her to explain that to me, so, that is why I got an extension-I had a few month of extension by the way. So, now to get an adjounment, do I tell the JP that because I need the disclosure, that's why I'm entitled to that adjounment?...I'm afraid JP will ask me why I didn't ask for disclosure as soon as she has given me the next trial date...would me telling her that I just found out I'm entitled to disclosure would be a sufficient reason? and on that day if the cop don't show up am I free of this situation? (I'm sure he will be there though-9:00am...Cops are always up an early). Thanks ^_^
lawmen wrote:
File for disclosure today or tomorrow. Request an adjounment once you get to your trial. You can explain the Xcopper deal and tell them the truth, you just found out you're entitled to disclosure and you want to exercise that right.
First, I want to thank you all for all the great advice in dealing with this situation. The last time I went to court, I have already told them about the X copper situation, and that I needed an interpreter just in case, since I don't know much of the law terminology, I may need him/her to explain that to me, so, that is why I got an extension-I had a few month of extension by the way. So, now to get an adjounment, do I tell the JP that because I need the disclosure, that's why I'm entitled to that adjounment?...I'm afraid JP will ask me why I didn't ask for disclosure as soon as she has given me the next trial date...would me telling her that I just found out I'm entitled to disclosure would be a sufficient reason? and on that day if the cop don't show up am I free of this situation? (I'm sure he will be there though-9:00am...Cops are always up an early).
007, you suffered a lost of money from Xcopper, thus you've suffered enough and your case should be stayed. You will request a stay because it was the government who put Xcopper out of business. The same government who is now trying to convict you and screw you out of even more money.
Make sure you specifically request a copy of the video in your disclosure request. If they can't find it, you can argue that evidence exonerating you has been lost. If they do find it and it shows what he claims, then request an adjournment and work on fighting the ticket BEFORE the trial proceeds. See http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic504.html for some ideas what to do. The key here is an extensive and relevant disclosure request focusing on your ability to make a proper defence. Example: You are requesting an explanation and clarification of the charge (a right under 11a of the Charter). In R. v. Araujo, 2008 ONCJ 507 the Crown is establishing a factum for extreme speed as a strict liability offence . The Crown's thinking on what constitutes a strict and absolute liability offence is pertinent to your case. You want a copy of that factum! Remember one of the points of disclosure is to NOT get it. Let the Crown cause the delays, force the focus on them. The last thing you want to do for a stop sign offence is to get into a he said, you said situation about whether you stopped. You will always lose that game. Good luck and good fight! Thanks, for your advice, your website was a lot of help...very informative. So, even though I have 2 weeks left, its not too late to request the disclosure? because I don't think they will have time to get the disclosure ready for me to pick up or for them to send to me...and on the date of my trial, the JP or proscecutor will say that I didn't give them sufficient time to prepare the disclosure and it was my fault that I didn't do it earlier...then what will I say??? Thanks! ^_^
ticketcombat wrote:
Dondon007 wrote:
He told me that I was caught on his video camera.
Make sure you specifically request a copy of the video in your disclosure request. If they can't find it, you can argue that evidence exonerating you has been lost.
If they do find it and it shows what he claims, then request an adjournment and work on fighting the ticket BEFORE the trial proceeds. See http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic504.html for some ideas what to do. The key here is an extensive and relevant disclosure request focusing on your ability to make a proper defence.
Example: You are requesting an explanation and clarification of the charge (a right under 11a of the Charter). In R. v. Araujo, 2008 ONCJ 507 the Crown is establishing a factum for extreme speed as a strict liability offence . The Crown's thinking on what constitutes a strict and absolute liability offence is pertinent to your case. You want a copy of that factum!
Remember one of the points of disclosure is to NOT get it. Let the Crown cause the delays, force the focus on them. The last thing you want to do for a stop sign offence is to get into a he said, you said situation about whether you stopped. You will always lose that game.
Good luck and good fight!
Thanks, for your advice, your website was a lot of help...very informative. So, even though I have 2 weeks left, its not too late to request the disclosure? because I don't think they will have time to get the disclosure ready for me to pick up or for them to send to me...and on the date of my trial, the JP or proscecutor will say that I didn't give them sufficient time to prepare the disclosure and it was my fault that I didn't do it earlier...then what will I say???
Disclosure is part of the legal procedure. A court cannot deny you this right. You did the right thing and hired counsel. Not you're without counsel. Now, on top of everyday responsibilities you need to become a lawyer. That doesn't happen overnight. The delays are not prejudice to the Crowns case so it must be granted. You should argue that you're entitled to a stay because your lost more money paying Xcoppers then the ticket will even be. Doesn't mean you'll win the argument but if you don't make it you're surely not going to win it. If you're eventually convicted, you can also ask that the fine, if any, be waived, or drastically reduced because of the money you lost hiring Xcopper.
Disclosure is part of the legal procedure. A court cannot deny you this right. You did the right thing and hired counsel. Not you're without counsel. Now, on top of everyday responsibilities you need to become a lawyer. That doesn't happen overnight. The delays are not prejudice to the Crowns case so it must be granted.
You should argue that you're entitled to a stay because your lost more money paying Xcoppers then the ticket will even be. Doesn't mean you'll win the argument but if you don't make it you're surely not going to win it.
If you're eventually convicted, you can also ask that the fine, if any, be waived, or drastically reduced because of the money you lost hiring Xcopper.
Don't worry about asking for the delay. The only bad thing is you are causing the delay so you cannot argue later that your case took too long to come to trial. But your right to disclosure is absolute and far more important. They know it and can't deny you. Just make sure that you get it in before the trial so you can say you already requested it once you found out what it was. And if they are really giving you trouble, and ONLY if they are about to deny you, then mention the video saying you believe it will exonerate you.
Don't worry about asking for the delay. The only bad thing is you are causing the delay so you cannot argue later that your case took too long to come to trial.
But your right to disclosure is absolute and far more important. They know it and can't deny you. Just make sure that you get it in before the trial so you can say you already requested it once you found out what it was. And if they are really giving you trouble, and ONLY if they are about to deny you, then mention the video saying you believe it will exonerate you.
Wow, thank you all for the great advices,,,now I'm more positive about this procedure... A few questions, If i request for disclosure, wouldn't the cop know that I'm challenging him (which would upset him because i'm trying to discredit him) and he would definitly show up in court for that date? Also,I noticed on witness section of the ticket, it marked "no" does that mean he didn't have witness or I didn't have witness? because my mother was with me at the time, can she be my witness due to our relationship? Thanks
Wow, thank you all for the great advices,,,now I'm more positive about this procedure...
A few questions, If i request for disclosure, wouldn't the cop know that I'm challenging him (which would upset him because i'm trying to discredit him) and he would definitly show up in court for that date? Also,I noticed on witness section of the ticket, it marked "no" does that mean he didn't have witness or I didn't have witness? because my mother was with me at the time, can she be my witness due to our relationship?
The cop knows you are challenging him because you requested a trial. He marked no witnesses because he is the only witness who saw you not stopping. Your mom can be a witness but she will not be a very reliable witness. She's your mom, of course she's going to say you stopped.
The cop knows you are challenging him because you requested a trial. He marked no witnesses because he is the only witness who saw you not stopping.
Your mom can be a witness but she will not be a very reliable witness. She's your mom, of course she's going to say you stopped.
Don't worry about him knowing. This is all just part of his job and he won't take it personally. If this is your first time to court, it will likely feel somewhat overwhelming, but try to follow along and learn the process. I just might be surprised how supportive and helpful most JP's are when they recognize a "new guy" in their court. If you don't call your mother to the stand, it will be the officers word against yours and you will most likely lose. Family members may make weak witnesses, but she's all you've got!
Dondon007 wrote:
...If i request for disclosure, wouldn't the cop know that I'm challenging him...
Don't worry about him knowing. This is all just part of his job and he won't take it personally. If this is your first time to court, it will likely feel somewhat overwhelming, but try to follow along and learn the process. I just might be surprised how supportive and helpful most JP's are when they recognize a "new guy" in their court.
If you don't call your mother to the stand, it will be the officers word against yours and you will most likely lose. Family members may make weak witnesses, but she's all you've got!
A vast majority of our court is on working days, so we will be there. I know most officers do not care that people go to trial. I would not say try to discredit, b/c the officers testimony will be truthful. You are merely arguing and clarifying the events based on the officers version and your version, then the JP has to decide which story is the better of the two. Honestly, it is more frustrating knowing you gave someone a break (ie reduced a speed or could have laid other charge(s)) then they still decide to challenge the ticket. I used my discretion, was more than fair and saved this person "X" dollars and "X" points.
Dondon007 wrote:
A few questions, If i request for disclosure, wouldn't the cop know that I'm challenging him (which would upset him because i'm trying to discredit him) and he would definitly show up in court for that date?
A vast majority of our court is on working days, so we will be there.
I know most officers do not care that people go to trial. I would not say try to discredit, b/c the officers testimony will be truthful. You are merely arguing and clarifying the events based on the officers version and your version, then the JP has to decide which story is the better of the two.
Honestly, it is more frustrating knowing you gave someone a break (ie reduced a speed or could have laid other charge(s)) then they still decide to challenge the ticket. I used my discretion, was more than fair and saved this person "X" dollars and "X" points.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Hello, well, went to my trial date and the police was there, I know there was a very slim chance that he wouldn't show up...anyways, I indicated I did not recieve the disclosure that I requested since I only gave 2 weeks in advance of my trial date so the Judge gave me another date to appear in court to set up my trial date...so does that mean I have a month time to get my disclosures and analyze it and determine if I want to proceed to trial? and on that day, will I get to choose my own date for trial? The cop was mentioning that he had caught me on video again and he seem pretty sure of himself after reading his note pad...I mean, I did stop, just not for the 3 full seconds,,,So, what do you all think? what should I do? And what is this chartered motion people keep telling me about? Thanks ^_^
Hello, well, went to my trial date and the police was there, I know there was a very slim chance that he wouldn't show up...anyways, I indicated I did not recieve the disclosure that I requested since I only gave 2 weeks in advance of my trial date so the Judge gave me another date to appear in court to set up my trial date...so does that mean I have a month time to get my disclosures and analyze it and determine if I want to proceed to trial? and on that day, will I get to choose my own date for trial? The cop was mentioning that he had caught me on video again and he seem pretty sure of himself after reading his note pad...I mean, I did stop, just not for the 3 full seconds,,,So, what do you all think? what should I do? And what is this chartered motion people keep telling me about?
Hold on! You didn't mention the three second rule before. Make sure you get a copy of that video. Insist upon it. Typically new cops remember their Young Driver's of Canada training. They mistakenly write tickets to people who don't stop for 3 seconds. There is NO legal requirement to stop for 3 seconds. Stop is stop. Even if it is for 1 billionth of a second, it's a stop. You then proceed with caution. As long as you did that, the charge is toast!
Hold on! You didn't mention the three second rule before. Make sure you get a copy of that video. Insist upon it. Typically new cops remember their Young Driver's of Canada training. They mistakenly write tickets to people who don't stop for 3 seconds. There is NO legal requirement to stop for 3 seconds. Stop is stop. Even if it is for 1 billionth of a second, it's a stop. You then proceed with caution. As long as you did that, the charge is toast!
The cop wrote down that you didn't "stop for the full 3 seconds" or words to that effect?! HA! If there's any indication that you came to a complete stop, you are not guilty. Should be a piece o'cake beating this one.
The cop wrote down that you didn't "stop for the full 3 seconds" or words to that effect?! HA! If there's any indication that you came to a complete stop, you are not guilty. Should be a piece o'cake beating this one.
Oh, no, no,,,the cop didn't say anything like that, I just overheard a conversation in court someone saying that the stop had to be 3 seconds...sorry for the misunderstanding. The cop just said he caught me on video. So now I have followed TICKETCOMBAT's advice and used his form to request for disclosure and since I did it 2 weeks before my trial date, the judge gave me a date to attend to set a trial date??? I guess that is to review the disclosure the procecuter will give me. So, now the question is, if I don't get the disclosure in time, that is before that date,,,what do I do??? HELP!!! Thanks
Oh, no, no,,,the cop didn't say anything like that, I just overheard a conversation in court someone saying that the stop had to be 3 seconds...sorry for the misunderstanding. The cop just said he caught me on video. So now I have followed TICKETCOMBAT's advice and used his form to request for disclosure and since I did it 2 weeks before my trial date, the judge gave me a date to attend to set a trial date??? I guess that is to review the disclosure the procecuter will give me. So, now the question is, if I don't get the disclosure in time, that is before that date,,,what do I do???
Your next court date is to meet to schedule a trial date. Yeah I know. And people wonder why the courts are backlogged! If you don't receive disclosure you can raise the issue then: "Your worship, what's the point of scheduling a trial if I haven't received disclosure by now?"
Your next court date is to meet to schedule a trial date. Yeah I know. And people wonder why the courts are backlogged! If you don't receive disclosure you can raise the issue then: "Your worship, what's the point of scheduling a trial if I haven't received disclosure by now?"
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