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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Alrighty, I stand Corected
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:26 am 
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Maybe in the absence of knowledge, I over estimated my numbers and thats why I am asking these questions. Here I am standing corected.

However, having admintted this, there is an awful lot of people who would swear they have been financially victimized by roadside police. And thats not immaginary which might equal more than the previously estimated 0.05% of officers who coudn't give a darn when they hand out tickets. Whatever the problem is, this is the impass. Given the above statement is true, unless there is annother as of yet unidentified problem, then that means that if I exagerate my numbers, then maybe you undervalue your numbers. Something just doesn't add up.

Oh btw, How do you think a roadside police officer might react to a dashmounted vehicle cam, running in a passengers car? Would he tell you to turn it off?


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:12 am 
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It would be unusual to make such a request...all of our traffic guys have audio recorders, not for evidence but for when the false complaints come in.

Having been in the business as long as I have, I've probably stopped 10,000 cars or more...I'll tell you I wish every one of them had been video recorded...why? Because like 99.5% (that's my HONEST guess), every time I've stopped a car it has been because I honestly felt I'd observed a violation.

Do I give warnings and breaks? Absolutely.

I agree some people just don't think they've broken the law, but I've never heard of a co-worker, or been partnered with anyone who ONCE stopped anyone for anything but a valid reason.

Again perception here is key...there's no benefit to the officer to stop a car for any other reason that a violation. We don't get the money, the city does and we really could care less about them, it doesn't help you get promoted...officers who stop cars believe traffic enforcement is important...does that apply to every officer, in my experience yes, the odds of you being stopped for any other reason IN MY HONEST SINCERE OPINION are astronomical...


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 4:12 pm 
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I don't agree with you. In fact I can personally state that I have been stopped for false reasons. I do believe that police officers are credited in some way for the tickets thay give out.

Are you saying that the police work for the City in which they operate?

I was under the impression that police worked for the province yes/no?

When you are dealing with traffic court, a place where money is extracted, it goes without saying that the benefits to the 'bringer' of the fines would be monetary.

I'm just saying that something doesn't add up in what you are saying. Please clarify.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 7:07 pm 
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You believed false reasons, I'm sure the officer believed valid reasons. It's like the car accidents I go to, two witnesses standing on opposite sides of the intersection, neither knows the drivers involved, one swears the red car blew the light, the other is positive it was the blue on. Don't even get me started on how I can show up to a collision and if I charge someone it's always cause I knew the other driver...I think personally people need to start holding themselves accountable for their own actions and not justifying their behaviour by making everything everyone else's fault.

City police services work for the city, provincial police work for the province.

Funny how you think the point of traffic court is to extract money...I'm sure that's a common belief, but traffic court was actually set up to punish those drivers who break the law. Thru convictions, suspensions, fines and sometimes incarceration. If money was important, they would convict more often, prosecutors would seldom withdraw charges and the government which can really do as it seems to please would make fines incredibly high...none of that is 'de rigeur'.

As a bringer you say I get extra money by laying tickets? While I concede that at times I get overtime for appearing in court, with my long 12 hour shifts, the last thing I want is to go to court on my day off...it's not worth the money.

I look at the totality of how traffic court is handled and think it makes perfect sense, it's independent of the city which gets the fine money (court is administered by the province) and the police's only role is to attend and testify.

Couldn't be any simpler and nobody who benefits has any say in the outcome.


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Thats great
PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 9:17 pm 
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Of course, observation are funny things, one side perceiving their side as a shining force for good, the other well more or less like Sin City. You have to be a well trained mind to seperate fact from fiction.

Sorry to say this but the fact is, what you say about yourself might not be true for the others. And you know what? I would encourage you to keep up the good work officer. To be an example for others, even if others thinks it's total bs. Do they give medals for beeing honorable? They probably should. Plus you've been very patient and I appreciate that.

Me, I can't change my mind on it. Somethings up on it. Maybe it's just some officers are indeferent to wether a driver deserves it or not, and thats why the honnest ones deserve the praises. Using powers of discretion and comon sense has to rule.

In the end, everyone, ultimately will be judged. And he's someone who can't be fooled.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 29, 2010 11:13 pm 
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Sadly discretion is the easiest thing to judge...from both sides of the equation...


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 12:38 am 
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FyreStorm wrote:
"I think personally people need to start holding themselves accountable for their own actions and not justifying their behaviour by making everything everyone else's fault."

''and the government which can really do as it seems to please would make fines incredibly high...none of that is 'de rigeur'..''



"I think personally people need to start holding themselves accountable for their own actions and not justifying their behaviour by making everything everyone else's fault."

Same could be said of police officers !

Can you tell me who the judges work for then? the province ? the city?

How does a fine really punish someone who is rich?
If tickets are to punish people then why do they not suspend a licence on the spot for hours or a day or a few days depending on speed? No, because traffic court is most definitely about revenue. Havent you noticed how the JP/Judge says thank you after arranging payment. All tickets are generating money for as you say the City, So therfore it uses this means to boost the assets of the City in question rather than get the money from the government directly. The government issues statutes to effectively generate income. It does make perfect sense but not for the reason of punishing a speeder.


''and the government which can really do as it seems to please would make fines incredibly high...none of that is 'de rigeur'..''

The government should be doing as the people please not as it seems to please. You cannot make fines incredibly high without ruining what is left of the economy. people need to be able to access the roads to get to work, if manufacturing suffers because workers cannot get to work the government suffers. This is all calculated to keep the worker ants working.


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We could be dancing like this for months.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:34 am 
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I understand, lots of people are opportunistic and if some officers are receptive to an explanation from a motorist. I am sure then that one can become bitter in dissapointement.

Look at the example of the crying little girl, she knowns she's guilty as sin but she's saying she's attending police foundations and absolutely cannot get a ticket as it would ruin her career. Of course she's coming home from a frat party, had slightly been drinking and not attending police foundations at all.

"Sorry deary, I smell that booze on your breath and your going 40kph's over and not even wearing a seatbelt. " You bastard, you ruined my life, now what am I going to do? (while crying screaming and shouting). It's ok, i'll get by turning tricks at the bikers bar and pumping my arm full of heroin instead of eating food and it's all because of you!!!!!!

Maybe some officers can get bitter from beeing lied to. They do tend to see the worst in us.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 7:24 am 
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Siriusone who have a very unique way of looking at things I'll give you that.

To address you're first comment, you are right more officers need to recognize it is their fault that people are speeding and not wearing their seatbelts. Good one.

All judicial officers are employees of the province. All revenue goes to the city...so the judges aren't even benefitting indirectly from the fines. After you've paid the prosecutor to review the matter, the officer's time to process the offence, attend in court, paid the justice of the peace, the court clerk, steno...even if the money went to the province they'd be losing money...so I don't get you're argument that we're a big money maker for anyone.

As for the fine, the principles of justice say we should treat everyone the same regardless of socio-economic status, to raise the fines for rich people is discrimination and wrong. I think if you can afford a car, there aren't many fines you can't afford. If you can't afford fines, you can't afford to drive.

If government did as people pleased we'd be in a fine mess, no taxes, no revenue, no services, no roads, no welfare, high crime, etc...governments are elected by the people to do what's right. I suspect that's why 'most' governments are doing the same things.

If you can't operate a vehicle safely and with consideration for others, there is no shortage of people who take their vehicles to your former workplace.

I've never once heard the argument that the economy is struggling cause too many people can't lawfully get to work...really, where do you come up with this stuff? Please find me one example in the history of mankind where a company has stated: "Geez we're really struggling down here at Plant X as a result of 2/3rds of our workforce unable to get to work." Just one...and then to say it would affect our economy on a grander scale...well...I don't even know where to go with that...

Quote:
You have to be a well trained mind to seperate fact from fiction.


More so, maybe just having experienced it from both sides...funny how police officers, aside from 40 hours a week on duty, are not 128 hours a week, most of our friends and family aren't police officers, and on average we're civilians our first 28 years on the planet.

I get lied to daily. Yes the police foundation / EMS program one is the best. Followed by the doctor who is speeding in his Mercedes (I'm going to surgery, it's an emergency!) So you let him go, then run into him grabbing a Starbucks 20 mins later...

In fact here's 10 Good Ones

10. I just bought this car! (Seller tells you it was about a year ago)
9. Those aren't my drugs, I lent my jeans to a friend, they must be his.
8. I didn't know I was going 50 over
7. I found those licence plates
6. I just picked him up hitchhiking I don't know his name
5. It must be a mistake, I paid those fines.
4. I don't smell anything officer.
3. My car is stalling that's why I'm speeding to clean out the engine.
2. I wasn't aware what the speed limit was here.
1. I just puled out that's why I don't have my seatbelt on.

Quote:
"Sorry deary, I smell that booze on your breath and your going 40kph's over and not even wearing a seatbelt. " You bastard, you ruined my life, now what am I going to do? (while crying screaming and shouting). It's ok, i'll get by turning tricks at the bikers bar and pumping my arm full of heroin instead of eating food and it's all because of you!!!!!!


That's hilarious, cause I've heard that EXACT quote, as she was trying to scratch my eyes out...something's telling law enforcement wasn't her true calling anyway...

I don't think we get bitter but cynical yes...

And unlike criminals who rob banks, molest children and murder people, we recognize that the average motorist isn't a criminal or more so even a bad person. But we still have a job to do...I TRULY BELIEVE IT'S A RARE THING THAT AN OFFICER WOULD WRITE A TICKET FOR AN OFFENCE THEY DIDN'T BELIEVE HAPPENED.


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Well, Here we go again.
PostPosted: Tue Mar 30, 2010 9:07 pm 
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How about a cab driver who gets pulled over twice for doing 10 and 15 over while heading to an airport for the days one and only fare in a poor town while somehow missing his rival cab driver roaring through a residential at probably over 130 (Just judging by eye). The only reason he knew we had fares was because this cab driver had a radio to tune into our home base. How the hell did they miss him twice The third time they missed him again I got away from a speeding ticket because after I told those officers that the dangerous driving cab that is scooping my fares and leaving me with no money for me in the last two weeks except your two tickets have been scooping my fares thanks to his radio. (all the same Officers) Those guys still wrote me a ticket, I told them they can affix it to the window of my car, I'm leaving this company, this cab is your problem now. I was ready to walk 25 kms home in -25 degree weather without a decent winter jacket, hat or mittens, I just coudn't care less.

Oh, now I get a listen sir, don't quit your job, just try not to speed anymore? What about the other cab? Do you not ever see him? Don't worry about him, we'll deal with him. Oh, so now you know he exists and that he's been racing me to the airport I say right! 10 years latter, again travelling to Sudbury, just short of my destination, we knew we were going 100 in a 90 zone but the police slapped us with a ticket going 130 in a 90. From our point view it was a vehicle behind us doing all the speeding and somehow the officer did not see him pass us, then he cut us off and the police must have assumed we were them. 300 dollar fine, 4 demerit points and no reductions, at 400 km's from my home, a situation impossible to fight. We tried appealing to the officer saying the car behind us was driving dangerously but of course this police officer is better than we are.

Yes, I do know the police do good work, but please don't tell me soo few pick on people because they do. Frankly perception among intelligent and unbiased people are very similar and sometimes they do like to pick on people, Maybe not on the scale of a sin city scenario, but hell yeah they do, probably more than you think.

The thing I have been trying to do is to find out what could motivate a police officer to completely ignore his duties, ignore the driver and slap him with a ticket no matter what he says and maybe now, show themselves as arrogant and I think now I have found my final conclusion. Many, many people lie to them all the time, just to get away from a ticket. These lies affects them to the point that they don't want to listen to the next driver and judge for themselves, I don't care, take it to the courts. That seems allot like picking on people.

There are two lessons here, One is that lying to a police officer will harden him because he/she doesn't want to be taken for a fool by a motorist and for the next guy he/she stops, watch out. The second lesson is for the officers to realise that not all passengers are trying to lie to you. If passengers are nice and polite during the stop and realising you did a mistake when you did, maybe the officer will reduce the ticket and maybe even drop it altogether. If a passenger thinks you stoped the wrong guy, please listen to his story, I nottice to that I get so rattled when I get stoped by a police officer that it takes me a while to collect myself so I can properly explain my version of the situation. Maybe the officer should just give that passenger a minute or two to collect his thaughts and so he can tell his story.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:06 am 
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Hey Cool,

You might like this...I usually give a complete break (no ticket) or full whack. I rarely ever give a half way ticket (reduced speed).

Anyway, stopped a vehicle one night for speed (think 122 in a 100). Spoke to driver and the typical usual point to speedometer, I had cruise set at 110 BS. So while speaking with driver (has female front passenger and rear passenger) rear passenger window slides down, evening officer, have to excuse the driver, he was going too fast,we are heading back to school tonight for tomorrow....take documents, go back to cruiser and come back. Now I start in about how driver knows each passenger (now there is a reason here wait for it), have driver explain both friends from school, went home for study week etc. Now hand documents back and advise he is getting a warning. Driver thanks me, then I ask him why I gave him a break....b/c of my front seat passenger (female)...NO, b/c of your buddy right here in the back....he has a puzzled look on his face...why?.....because he is a true friend, he told the truth! Driver's face went pale as can be....please drive safely...... as I walked away, heard things of you own me a few beer!

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Good story
PostPosted: Thu Apr 01, 2010 6:13 am 
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I would have no complaints if all police acted like that. It's the way policing is meant to be.

I like the part that the driver was disshonest and the passenger told the truth. The best part is that when you gave them a break, you told the occupants of exactly why you are giving them a break, because one of them told you the truth. Your showing an example to them. It shows allot of intelligence and teaches the occupants of that vehicle a valuable lesson.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:04 pm 
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I fail to understand how a passenger in the rear can say for sure that the guy was speeding. Also I think if police officers did start listening to some truths, they too may learn some valuable lessons.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 6:46 pm 
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Please enlighten us...


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 02, 2010 9:34 pm 
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The first part's fairly obvious.. A rear passenger can see the speedo depending on where he's sitting (and some cars even have a centrally-mounted speedo, which makes it easy for all car occupants to see the indicated speed of the vehicle).

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