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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Should i fight this offense or no?
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Hello Driver's Liscense Info Needed.
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 31, 2008 11:33 pm 
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Hello everyone i would like to get some information from you all about a situation that happened to me a month or so ago luckily i stumbled upon your site so any information would be great. Alright well first off i am from Hamilton, Ontario. It was around 5:40 Am in the morning i was driving to work not late or in a rush just driving the speed limit anywhere from 50-55 Kms when i approach a red light so i just ease off of the gas and let myself coast down the hill i was just on as i reach the light it turns green so i release the brake pedal. On releasing the brake pedal i notice there is a police officer in the opposite lane as me. He is completely stopped since he was waiting for the light to change to green. So as i was not speeding or driving erratically i continued through the intersection passing the officer and continued on my way. I slowed my speed down a little but continued to work. I changed lanes and made my way down the street. 2-3 blocks later i see the lights go on so i pull over to the side of the road figuring the officer needs the road clear, but i notice he is pulling me over so i put my car in park and wait for the officer.

The officer approached my vehicle and the first thing he said was "Wow you really flew by me there you were going at least 70 Kms an hour". As i clearly know i wasn't i said no i was not going 70 Kms an hour in a polite manner. As he just shrugged it off as i know for a fact he did not have me clocked going 70 Kms an hour in a 50 Kms an hour zone. At this point he pulled me over for no reason as to i basically passed him at a stop light. He then asks me for my driver's license i check my pockets and my backpack and i seem to have left my wallet at home. So i tell the officer this he takes down all of my information, dob, first name, last name and so on. He proceeds back to his car i wait roughly 5 minutes he comes back up to my car and passes me a ticket, i ask him what for? he says for failing to surrender my license. At that point i started to ask him some questions which were going to be don't i get a warning? can i not bring my driver's license into the station within 24 hours as proof? He did not allow me to ask any questions. The only thing he said to me was "take it up with the judge at the trial if you have any questions". As i continue to ask him questions he just walks away....

So now here is the situation i am in i believe it is a $110 ticket that i have to pay for failing to surrender my lisense any suggestions if it is even worth fighting in court on the trial date? I do not know what to do at this point so any suggestions would be great.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:21 pm 
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Any information or suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the time bye for now.

P.s sorry the previous post was such a novel :P.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 2:47 pm 
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I have seen on the police forum that verbal identification is adequate per subsection (3) below. I'll see if I can find that thread.

33. (1) Every driver of a motor vehicle or street car shall carry his or her licence with him or her at all times while he or she is in charge of a motor vehicle or street car and shall surrender the licence for reasonable inspection upon the demand of a police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 33 (1).
Same, re novice driver rules

(3) Every person who is unable or refuses to surrender his or her licence in accordance with subsection (1) or (2) shall, when requested by a police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act, give reasonable identification of himself or herself and, for the purposes of this subsection, the correct name and address of the person shall be deemed to be reasonable identification. 1993, c. 40, s. 3.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 3:19 pm 
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What is the section of the OHTA cited on the ticket?

Also, I think a buddy of mine had the same charge a while back, and he just took it to the pre-trial and the ticket was dropped.

I think it has to do with the fact that you didn't deny to give the officer your license, but you failed to provide it when asked. So I'm not sure of this but, I think once you show them your license in person, then they can't really charge you anymore, because you are and were licensed at the time the cop pulled you over.

Hope that makes sense....however, I'm not too sure if it will work though, since the charge is for not surrendering it when asked. However, its not a sold requirement, and there are lenience practices in place such as the 24 hour period to produce the license.

So based on that, if he chose to give you 24 hours instead of the ticket, then you wouldn't have this problem, but since he gave you the ticket, and he could have given you the 24 hour lenience policy thing instead, it creates sort of a loop hole for the system as to setting double standards. To not have a double standard, the ticket should be voided by providing and showing your license in court.

Or simply put, if you were to actually get convicted of that ticket, it would mean that no one can ever be caught short of a license, even if they lost their wallet without knowing, and their punishment would be a $110 fine and some points. Because, as some people may not agree, the system isn't just created to rob your wallet. Just because someone forgets to bring their license doesn't mean they have to now pay $110 in fines.

Thats just my thinking...let me know what you guys think.

Thanks.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:48 pm 
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Thanks for the advice :D Any other advice is welcome. Also in regards to
"(3) Every person who is unable or refuses to surrender his or her licence in accordance with subsection (1) or (2) shall, when requested by a police officer or officer appointed for carrying out the provisions of this Act, give reasonable identification of himself or herself and, for the purposes of this subsection, the correct name and address of the person shall be deemed to be reasonable identification. 1993, c. 40, s. 3." I also found this information on the internet how would i go about giving this information to the judge? do i just mention it and provide the website? Would this information be able to be found at my local library so i can quote it instead? Also with my first message do i go into great detail when the trial happens or just let the judge speak? Sorry again for more questions i am just not sure how the trial will go and i definitely don't want to leave the court house with my story completely being heard especially if i am getting the ticket no matter what. And i agree with you both a 24 hour time to provide my license would have been ideal even a 12 hour amount of time anything. Thanks again for the help.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 5:53 pm 
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Also the section is "You did commit the offense of FL. To Surrender Dr. License contrary to the Highway Traffic Act Section 33(1)". Sorry for the double post hope that helps. Also i read on some other forum posts that if you are a student your fine can be lowered is this true? Thanks again bye.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 6:54 pm 
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... I'll never find that thread, but I DO remember being PO'd because I received a Fail to Show License not long before reading it. I thought I was "all smart and junk" because I got it dropped in exchange for a guilty plea on a second offense, only to later learn of this loophole. The Crown must have been chuckling for a good 1/2 hour after that one. No worries though, I destroyed him on my next court appearance :mrgreen:

In the thread, the officer was complaining about offenders "getting off on that darn subsection (3) all the time".



Trial:
- Dress nice
- Show up on time
- When Crown proposes a deal, refuse it.
- Wait for your name to be called (following all the poor saps who plea-bargained away their defense)
- The JP will prompt you for answers at the appropriate time ("not guilty")
- the Crown will call the officer to the stand
- the officer will recite the events leading up to your ticket
- the Crown will ask a few questions pertinent to the charge.

- the JP will ask if you have any questions of the witness:
JUST ONE
1) Did I state my correct name and address at the traffic stop? ("YES")

The JP will ask for you to take the stand:
"I'm prepared to move straight to closing arguments your worship."

Because you are representing yourself, the JP may just stop the trial and dismiss the charge at this point. Otherwise...

The Crown will make a closing statement first.

Then You:
Subsection (3) of Section 33 of the Highway Traffic Act states that giving one's correct name and address will suffice as reasonable identification, in lieu of an actual drivers license. I did provide this information accordingly and ask that the charge against me be dismissed. Thank you."


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2008 8:12 pm 
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Wow thanks for all of that information, that will help ALOT. I have heard of officer's not being present during the trial also there are action's on the previous card i had to fill out about the trial honestly i am not sure if i signed anything that mentioned if the officer had to be present or not could this be to my downfall? :( I received this mailed document a few days short of the time it needed to be sent back to the office so it was sort of rushed. Thanks again this is a huge amount of help.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 12:30 am 
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Also can i bring documents into the trial? will i be allowed to read from these documents? or should i just prepare myself for these questions as they come to me? not sure how it goes. Also will it just be me/ the judge and the defense or will there be many others?


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:24 am 
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Sure, you can read from documents. Just cut/paste/print out the statue above. You can read from it. The Crown knows the statute and won't challenge you're copy.

The Justice of the Peace plays the role of the judge, but is not an actual "judge". The Crown is the prosecuting attorney and the cop is his witness. There will be a court clerk and a court officer present. Some courts allow the general public to sit in and watch, others make them wait in the hall.

Try not to get all intimidated by the setting and procedures. The JP will recognize that you are nervous and new, and will guide you through the process. I have even had a JP point out what I should do to win! (TWICE!!)

Regard your trip as a learning experience. This likely won't be your last time fighting a ticket, so this experience will help for the next one, even if you lose this time ;)


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Hey everyone MORE HELP? :D
PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 4:21 pm 
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Hey everyone i just returned from my trial luckily it was rescheduled for a month or so down the line. When i went into the court room the lawyer for the city called me up i registered and she asked me guilty or not guilty. I proceeded to say "Not Guilty" she then said did you have your license? i said no and she said there is no point to fighting this matter then. She at this point offered me a lower charge which i declined as advised to in previous posts. At this point and time i showed her the statement i was talking about. Which was "Subsection (3) of section 33 of OHTA which states giving one's name and address will suffice as reasonable identification in lieu of an actual driver's license". She at this point said yes but you did not have your license on you.... again i said no she said then said i was guilty. So she told me to go sit down at this point i go sit down she calls me back up and starts proceeding to get sort of angry with me over the fact that i am fighting it and it seemed like she was trying to make me a fool in front of the entire group of onlookers. At this point red faced in embarrassment i point out my fact again and then she again tells me to sit down. Feeling like a complete fool i watch the other cases now at this point i am GREATLY angered by this women who did this to me and would definitely like ANY information any of you can give to me to make the case prevail. After that incident i am greatly saddened by this series of events, if i wish to plea NOT GUILTY then that is my choice.... but yeah so that is what she told me i spoke with the officer after the trial had been moved and he said he almost couldn't make it to the trial. So if he does not make it do i win? how does this work? And ANY other info please forward it to this forum page it would be a HUGE amount of help if you could. THANKS SO MUCH AGAIN. Take Care.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 08, 2008 10:37 pm 
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Ya, nothing upsets the Crown Prosecutor more than someone refusing their generous plea bargain, LOL.

I'm confused about why you now have a second court date. Was your case not heard by the JP? Or perhaps the cop showed up too late? Something sounds hokey here.

If the cop doesn't show, the Crown will surely motion (ask) the court for a Continuance (a re-do at a later date). It is up to you to counter that request with an explanation about how much money you have already lost due to lost time at work, and that it is not your fault the officer didn't show, so you should not be punished further. It sounds to me like a Continuance was granted today (probably because you didn't dispute it). If the officer doesn't show the next time, be sure to demand (nicely) that the charge be dropped. This request is to be made to the JP, not the Crown. The Crown is now your enemy ;)

If the Crown was correct, and you ARE guilty of the offense, why did the JP not rule and find you guilty??

Book
P.S. Remember, both OHTA and myself are offering advice based on what OTHERS have said. If you don't follow through with an actual trial, you (and us) will never know if 33.(3) applies ;)

The more you go, the more you learn. Try to have fun "enraging" the Crown, LOL


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 1:18 am 
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Helpneeded I am confused...Did you NOT show them your license when you went to court?

The prosecutor told you to sit down because you are essentially wasting your time and theirs. How do you expect to get off this ticket, if you don't show them your license? Thats the only way your going to win this. You MUST take your license and PROVE you are a licensed Driver!

This is a fairly simple case. All you really need to do is show them your license, and then your off.


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I may have not explained fully
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 3:43 am 
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I may not have explained fully well my court date was set today for 1:30 pm they asked us to come to register i did so and my case was one of the last one's reviewed. About 4-5 cases went before me and the guy prior to me took around 1-1& 1/2 hours just for his case so when my name was called the judge said basically proceedings have went to long we will have to reschedule the trial.... i was unaware what to do and the police officer was in the court room also. Oh and don't worry i plan on fighting this the way i see it is why is this section saying "that my name and address will suffice as reasonable identification" if it in this case is not true. Just remove it from the OHTA completely then and no problems shall arise.

And in regards to admin's post i did not know what to do when going to the trial i took what book told me to do but did not get the opportunity to do anything further. The crown basically said you are guilty i told her i had my license but on that date i happened to have forgot it at home she said i am still guilty. I had my license there with me i just did not take it out and show them i figured it would be rude and seem like i was trying to be a know it all. So is that what i need to do? show them my license? i don't know but any further info you can give me would be great thanks for the help.

Also just another question if i go to trial and i receive the charge of "guilty" once all is said and done will the fine still be the initial amount or will there be a few charges added on top of the first fine? just thought i would ask thanks again.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 9:04 am 
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There are no extra fees for fighting a ticket. Court fees have already been added to your ticket (usually $30.00 to an $85.00 ticket = $110.00). You're right to trial has been "pre-paid" with this extra fee. Most people just send in their cheque and the court gets this fee as a bonus!

The Crown can not declair you guilty, only the JP can. The Crown can only present a case. A large part of "lawyerin" is in the theatrics. The way dialogue is presented in court is meant to psychologically sway the opinion of others. The JP will see right through this though, so no worries. I woudn't place a lot of weight on anything the Crown says. When you have a point to make, make it. That's what defending yourself is all about.

I would suggest you be sure to state to the JP that when you left, you were certain you had your lisence. You were surprised that you didn't have it when you were stopped. You thought it was lost. You cooperated with the officer and gave all your correct information verbally. Only when you got home, did you find it. You have no hard feelings toward the officer and you now have a photo copy of your lisence in your car at all times (as a backup system).

GL


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