I'll try to explain this as quick as possible - I'd like clarification to clear up something that I read elsewhere. First off, I'll preface my post by saying that I'm NOT condoning illegal drinking and driving, however my question does relate to BAC. Situation: An experienced driver who has held a class G, D, A etc etc decides to get his/her motorcycle licence. The M1 (complete beginner) motorcycle licence licence carries several restrictions while operating the motorcycle including 0 BAC, no driving on roads with a limit over 80, no driving at night, no passengers. The next class (intermediate) motorcycle licence (M2) removes all but the 0 BAC restriction. I'm cool with that - nobody should be getting on 2 wheels with any sort of BAC. However...It's been suggested that these restrictions (specifically the 0 BAC with the M2 licence which a rider must live with for at least a few years before being eligible to upgrade to the full class M) carries over to ALL other classes of licences the motorcycle rider carries....so a 50 year old guy who has had a clean class G licence all his life and then decides to buy a motorcycle, gets his M1 and then M2 shortly afterwards (M1 is only valid for 90 days) will have to, potentially for several years until such time that he is eligible to upgrade to the full class M (which removes all restrictions), maintain a 0 BAC while driving his CAR? So a guy can't go to a pub in his CAR, have a single beer with his buddies and drive his CAR (not motorcycle) home without risking a novice driver charge and licence suspension if pulled over and blows a perfectly legal G class BAC, but actually end up suspended and such...simply because he carries a M1 or M2 motorcycle licence?
I'll try to explain this as quick as possible - I'd like clarification to clear up something that I read elsewhere.
First off, I'll preface my post by saying that I'm NOT condoning illegal drinking and driving, however my question does relate to BAC.
Situation: An experienced driver who has held a class G, D, A etc etc decides to get his/her motorcycle licence. The M1 (complete beginner) motorcycle licence licence carries several restrictions while operating the motorcycle including 0 BAC, no driving on roads with a limit over 80, no driving at night, no passengers. The next class (intermediate) motorcycle licence (M2) removes all but the 0 BAC restriction. I'm cool with that - nobody should be getting on 2 wheels with any sort of BAC.
However...It's been suggested that these restrictions (specifically the 0 BAC with the M2 licence which a rider must live with for at least a few years before being eligible to upgrade to the full class M) carries over to ALL other classes of licences the motorcycle rider carries....so a 50 year old guy who has had a clean class G licence all his life and then decides to buy a motorcycle, gets his M1 and then M2 shortly afterwards (M1 is only valid for 90 days) will have to, potentially for several years until such time that he is eligible to upgrade to the full class M (which removes all restrictions), maintain a 0 BAC while driving his CAR?
So a guy can't go to a pub in his CAR, have a single beer with his buddies and drive his CAR (not motorcycle) home without risking a novice driver charge and licence suspension if pulled over and blows a perfectly legal G class BAC, but actually end up suspended and such...simply because he carries a M1 or M2 motorcycle licence?
The zero BAC licencing condition should only apply when youre driving the applicable vehicle type. The one catch though is that the sanctions for violating a novice condition now apply to your full licence as well. So if you breach one of the conditions, such as getting a 4 demerit point ticket (even while driving your car) youll be looking at a 30-day suspension.
The zero BAC licencing condition should only apply when youre driving the applicable vehicle type. The one catch though is that the sanctions for violating a novice condition now apply to your full licence as well. So if you breach one of the conditions, such as getting a 4 demerit point ticket (even while driving your car) youll be looking at a 30-day suspension.
So, if a LEO claims to have laid a charge based on someone with a M2 licence driving his car with a Legal (but not 0) BAC and claims it stuck and a conviction was registered....it was an error in law or creative interpretation?
Stanton wrote:
The zero BAC licencing condition should only apply when youre driving the applicable vehicle type.
So, if a LEO claims to have laid a charge based on someone with a M2 licence driving his car with a Legal (but not 0) BAC and claims it stuck and a conviction was registered....it was an error in law or creative interpretation?
I would think it's an error. Section 44.1 of the HTA covers the zero BAC requirement, and it says the following: For the definition of a novice driver, you need to look under section 29 of the driver's licence regulation, which can be found here: http://www.canlii.org/en/on/laws/regu/o ... 40-94.html I believe the relevant sections are as follows: I interpret that as saying that when you're driving a CAR, you're NOT a novice driver if you have/had a full class G licence. I don't see an exception that would reverse that for having a M1/M2. The section then goes on to state the following: I interpret that to say that when you're driving a MOTORCYCLE without a full class M, you're a novice driver. Again, this is just my interpretation. I've love to hear from someone with actual case law or legal insight. Also, not that common sense always applies when it comes to the law, but would it make sense to also suddenly prohibit G drivers from driving at night, 400 series highways, etc? Also what would you do with a G1/M1 driver? G1 requires you to have an accompanying driver whereas M1 prohibits any passengers? :) I also take back what I said earlier about 4 point convictions with hybrid licences. I saw a new MTO page that states the following:
I would think it's an error.
Section 44.1 of the HTA covers the zero BAC requirement, and it says the following:
44.1 (1) It is a condition of the drivers licence of every novice driver that his or her blood alcohol concentration level be zero while he or she is driving a motor vehicle on a highway. 2009, c. 5, s. 14
29. (1) A driver of a motor vehicle, other than a motorcycle or a motor assisted bicycle, on a highway shall be classed as a novice driver in Class G1 or G2 unless he or she,
(a) is a fully licensed driver who has held at any time in the last three years a valid drivers licence, other than a Class G1, G2, M, M1 or M2 drivers licence, issued under the Act;
I interpret that as saying that when you're driving a CAR, you're NOT a novice driver if you have/had a full class G licence. I don't see an exception that would reverse that for having a M1/M2. The section then goes on to state the following:
(2) A driver of a motorcycle on a highway shall be classed as a novice driver in Class M1 or M2 unless he or she,
(a) has held at any time in the last three years a valid drivers licence in Class M issued under the Act; or
I interpret that to say that when you're driving a MOTORCYCLE without a full class M, you're a novice driver.
Again, this is just my interpretation. I've love to hear from someone with actual case law or legal insight.
Also, not that common sense always applies when it comes to the law, but would it make sense to also suddenly prohibit G drivers from driving at night, 400 series highways, etc? Also what would you do with a G1/M1 driver? G1 requires you to have an accompanying driver whereas M1 prohibits any passengers?
I also take back what I said earlier about 4 point convictions with hybrid licences. I saw a new MTO page that states the following:
Note: Escalating sanctions do not apply in situations where a driver is convicted of an offence resulting in four or more demerit points (or receives a court-ordered suspension for an offence that would have resulted in four or more demerit points) and has one of the following hybrid licence combinations:
(a) A G1 or G2 with a Class M licence
(b) An M1 or M2 with a Class A, B, C, D, E, F or G licence
x2, HUGE thanks. I'm going to followup elsewhere. ;) For the record, this is (100% honestly) just a theoretical discussion...I wasn't charged or anything, but it just seemed like an asinine situation to me where something seemed wrong.
argyll wrote:
Nicely researched
x2, HUGE thanks. I'm going to followup elsewhere.
For the record, this is (100% honestly) just a theoretical discussion...I wasn't charged or anything, but it just seemed like an asinine situation to me where something seemed wrong.
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