Hi all, I was perusing this site after being given my first ever road-side ticket tonight around 9 PM. I was in Toronto, Scarborough, Sandhurst Circle, turning (right) west onto Finch. The light was definitely amber, and I completed my turn. However, an officer facing Eastbound on Finch immediately pulled a 3 point turn, hit his lights, and pulled me over. He claimed I had failed to stop at the red light. I very confusedly asked if it wasn't an Amber light. He looked up, seeming honestly a bit confused himself, and said "no. It was Red." He then gave me the ticket for 325 dollars total. My issue is mainly just that I *know* it was amber. Even the pedestrian beacon was indicating 4 seconds remaining AFTER I had begun my turn. There were 2 vehicles between myself and the officer, he was in the far right lane facing East; I'm unsure how he was able to make that call with such an obstructed view. I'm sure the officer's dashcam will show that there were two vehicles clearly blocking his line of sight, therefore making his understanding of MY vehicle's movements a bit hazy. Regardless, I feel like, if anything, I could be charged with the lesser offense (cost-wise) of the Fail To Stop - Amber Light. However, I also feel that because of the snowy conditions of the road (I took a picture afterwards of the ground), it would have been unsafe for me to just stop - I may have skidded into the intersection and been awkwardly in both lanes, hence making my turn on an amber light reasonable (??) . I should note (not that this will matter I suppose) that there were no pedestrians and no vehicles coming westbound either (at any notable distance at least). I'm wondering how I might fight this case or if I should even bother at all. Time isn't a factor for me because my work schedule is flexible. I understand a possible Amber light infraction, but this Red light infraction is absurd. If ANYTHING, the light turned red AFTER 7/8ths of my vehicle were in the lane. Does that still count as a Red Light - Fail to Stop? Do I have anything in particular to lose, apart from my time, by going to trial? I'm actually a bit confused as to how this whole process works. I visited ticketcombat and it did clarify a few things. I'm planning on going to the court on Monday morning to request a trial and in general, ask some questions. In some other posts here and on redflag, I've seen different opinions on requesting disclosure as well. Some say that by requesting disclosure, you ensure the police officer will show up. Others seemed to say if you don't, you risk going in without full knowledge of the case against you. I personally think seeing the video footage will clarify a lot for me, mainly about the officer's line of sight. One curious thing... after our interaction ended, I turned back onto the circle (https://goo.gl/maps/Yi0Ok) from McCowan road (northbound) and the officer followed me. I continued on until I reached the SAME intersection where the incident occurred. This time I made sure to fully ultra mega stop before turning. The officer didnt follow and waited for green to continue straight ahead. I'm wondering if he did this just to return to his route or if he did it so his camera can confirm something in case I take it to trial. Any suggestions?, I'm really quite scared of this but I don't want to buckle and plead guilty when I'm not. Thanks for reading and for any replies.
Topic
Red Light - Fail to Stop (But it was definitely Amber!)
Well it is a good sign that the JP wants time to deliberate. That means that you did at least give him/her something to think about, but it does not mean that you won. Now usually when I have seen this happens, the JP will take 10 or 15 minutes then come back and give decision. So is it strange that JP put it off until January? Well for a POA case, I would say yes it is a little strange. Although for more complex cases, a JP/Judge can put off their decision for quite a while! When you testify, this is also where you need to mount your defence. When you are on the stand is when you should have submitted reports and photos as this is all your evidence. The other way to get those reports and photos included would have been to use them to question the officer during cross-examination. So if you did not want to testify but wanted that stuff entered, you would have to have gone that route. For any case laws though, you CAN bring those up during your submissions. You can NOT enter new evidence during submissions, but pointing out case law that support your case is not evidence so this is usually done during submissions.
Well it is a good sign that the JP wants time to deliberate. That means that you did at least give him/her something to think about, but it does not mean that you won. Now usually when I have seen this happens, the JP will take 10 or 15 minutes then come back and give decision. So is it strange that JP put it off until January? Well for a POA case, I would say yes it is a little strange. Although for more complex cases, a JP/Judge can put off their decision for quite a while!
When you testify, this is also where you need to mount your defence. When you are on the stand is when you should have submitted reports and photos as this is all your evidence. The other way to get those reports and photos included would have been to use them to question the officer during cross-examination. So if you did not want to testify but wanted that stuff entered, you would have to have gone that route.
For any case laws though, you CAN bring those up during your submissions. You can NOT enter new evidence during submissions, but pointing out case law that support your case is not evidence so this is usually done during submissions.
It just occured to me that you should read the following case: R. v. Rijal, 2010 ONCJ 329 http://canlii.ca/t/2c2px Print a copy out and get a highlighter and go thru it and look for everything referencing the assistance the JP should give a self-represented individual. If you lose the case, you could appeal with one angle being not providing meaningful assistance. For example when you tried to put more evidence in the JP could have offered to put you back on the witness stand but did not make that suggestion to you. Something to consider anyways.
It just occured to me that you should read the following case:
Print a copy out and get a highlighter and go thru it and look for everything referencing the assistance the JP should give a self-represented individual. If you lose the case, you could appeal with one angle being not providing meaningful assistance. For example when you tried to put more evidence in the JP could have offered to put you back on the witness stand but did not make that suggestion to you.
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