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Speeding and Insurance - looking for opinions on my tactics:
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:54 pm 
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Looking for some opinions/help on my chances:

Tickets: Speeding 50 in a 40 (reduced from 60 in a 40), fail to have insurance card.

My position is that I was doing 50 in what I thought was a 50. (see below)
I know that ignorance is no defence, but this was on a city street where you would normally assume 50 unless otherwise posted.

1. Valid sign? There is a sign that says 40, but it is completely obscured by overgrown bushes unless you are right beside it. I have pictures to put into evidence that I took the next day. Another sign much further up the road is also obscured by trees, you cannot see it when you are beside the first sign. This is not properly marked signage, right? Grounds for dismissal?

2. Disclosure. I requested disclosure for both tickets on separate forms, one page for each. When they supplied disclosure by email, they included:
Request page for insurance disclosure only
"Copies" of both tickets - more on that later
copies of notes
radar manual
They did not specifically say anywhere that this is also disclosure for the speeding ticket.
Should I request adjournment to get proper disclosure for the "speeding" offense, or with the justice flip out?

3. Trials. I will be asking for separate trials on each matter. If I get the speeding dismissed, then there would have been no
stop for that, and they would never have found out about the insurance, so that should be dismissed too, right?
Besides, i did have valid insurance, and did find it in the car, just not in time. I found it just as she was walking up with the tickets, but said she could not back down on the insurance, I would have to go to court.

4. Notes altered. The notes show some overwriting in the area where the officer noted where she was located, N or S of the intersection.
All the other direction indicators are clear, but this one looks like it has both N and S one on top of the other.
This is relevant becasue she will say she was 15m S of an intersection and saw me 30m and 10m N of the intersection, as on the ticket notes.
But if she was actually 15m N of the intersection, then the measurements don't make sense. How would she measure me 15m in front of her and then 5 m behind her?
I think the alteration is enough to raise doubt on her location, and on the observations of speed. Opinions?

5. Road test. Radar manual say that "the unit shall (not should) have a separate "road test" at the start and end of a tour of duty". The officer notes supplied make no indication that a road test was done at the start of shift. Some kind of test was done, but not sure if it was only the unit self-test.
The word "road" does not appear in the notes.
They did not supply any notes around end of shift timeframe.
Does this cast douct on the unit's accuracy?

6. Range. Manual says that when the unit is turned on default mode is full range, >900m in either direction, front or back.
Manual also states that range should be reduced for city use.
Notes do not mention what range was set to. Other settings are noted, but not the range.
My position is that she could have measured someone way up in front or behind her.

7. Signature. Police in this area have gone to computerized printouts. I guess they installed a small laser printer in the car, and print them out on the spot for clarity.
Now, I don't recall whether the originals had a signature on them or not, as "I have since lost them", but the copies that they supplied in disclosure, which must be what they intend to use as evidence, do not have any kind of signature on them.
In the old days, they would have the second copy of the original, and it would show the original signature of the officer.
Now, if they intend to use this as the offense notice in court, I suggest it is not valid without a signature.
Even if they show up with a signed one, this is not what was disclosed, and this is not a true original copy of what was handed to me, and is not proof of what was handed to me.
Interesting thing is that I was in the same courtroom the other day, and heard tickets for several people thrown out "due to lack of signature".
How often does THAT happen? I think these laser tickets are to blame, and they can't enforce them in court?
These were all dismissed without any trial, because I guess they do not want to get it into the record.
Besides, it's not up to me to produce an unsigned copy, it is up to them to produce a signed one, right? If they can't do that, then dismissed, no?


I can upload a PDF of the "Genesis II Moving Radar Manual" someplace here, if it is not already posted.

Thanks for reading and commenting...

My trial is coming up on Thursday, i will let you know how it goes.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:14 am 
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2008 5:28 pm
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Location: Mississauga
Quote:
2. Disclosure. I requested disclosure for both tickets on separate forms, one page for each. When they supplied disclosure by email, they included:
Request page for insurance disclosure only
"Copies" of both tickets - more on that later
copies of notes
radar manual
They did not specifically say anywhere that this is also disclosure for the speeding ticket.
Should I request adjournment to get proper disclosure for the "speeding" offense, or with the justice flip out?


You requested disclosure...you received it.. not certain why you would even attempt this argument. Asking for adjournment for "proper" disclosure for speeding - YOU GOT PROPER DISCLOSURE


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:19 am 
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Location: Mississauga
As to the other items, you may have a good argument. Testing, road test, no entry in notes, etc. That what we do daily and you should be aware that all of your raised issues are not new and were argued many times. Read some case law on point and go for it.

Good luck.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:36 pm 
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Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!
Testing time and not mentioning the word "road" is insignificant. The road test is part of the complete testing procedure.

I personally indicate test time and that is it. (ie: 0713 Gen test ok).

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Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:44 pm 
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Joined: Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:31 pm
Posts: 502
Every city In Ontario I have entered has a basic street rule sign on the edge. Usually no parking 2AM-7AM and 50 kph unless stated other-wise.

Speeding is absolute liable but if there is a hidden sign I think you could beat the ticket.

I see lots of stop signs covered with foliage maybe some-one who got a ticket like that needs to sue the city?

The cop should have to point out the sign spots I think.

I don't endorse speeding but really it is hard to keep your car at 40KPH

(especially) with a cop pointing a gun at you.

Cheers
Viper1

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 25, 2010 3:52 pm 
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Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2009 10:06 pm
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You wont get separate trials for both both tickets are from the same stop.

E-tickets are valid with out signatures. HTA was amended for them. Cannot remember where it was.

ops Copper


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Status update
PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:20 pm 
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Joined: Sat Oct 23, 2010 6:13 pm
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Went to court on Thursday.
Cop was there.
Prosecutor tried to get me to bargain by dropping the insurance charge if I pled guilty to the speeding. I said I had my insurance, and that they were two separate charges - what gives? She said "take it or leave it, we'll have a trial on both charges". Pressure tactics. I said - fine, trial on both.
But as the session got started, they had a leftover trial from the morning to finish.
They dealt with all the fools who pleaded out, then went back to trial on the morning guy. He was fighting a laser ticket, arguing on and on about the calibration, but he took about 30-45 minutes to get through it all. In the end, the JP ruled the officer's testimony full of holes, and tossed out the case. Yay.
There was me and another guy left.

They tossed out both our cases, all charges withdrawn, because it was almost the end of the alloted session time, and there was no time for a trial! They didn't want to bother postponing, as they know it would get tossed later.

Everyone fight fight fight!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 01, 2010 9:52 pm 
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Excellent Job! Thanks for posting here about your ticket!

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