My experience at Queen St court house

Observer135
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My experience at Queen St court house

by: Observer135 on
Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:16 pm

This website and Ticketcombat have been great source of information for me and I have benefited a great deal.
I like to thank everyone who has posted and responded to questions and shared information in an effort to help others like myself.
Here is my story trying to help any one else who may decide to read and learn how to proceed with their ticket...

So I showed up at court, once again the prosecutor tried to negotiate a deal and get me to plead guilty, this one tries to tell people that if you go to court, the fine can go up, one guy who ran a red light was told he can face a charge as high $3000 including court fees, wow, now that is dirty...

I said no, and she tried and I simply replied I have filed a motion and she said so you want to go to court? I said yes...
During the trial I noticed the JP was very nice and I had a felling that she would allow my motion and grant my request for stay of proceedings.
But...
After some case were processed, the JP told the prosecutor that they will not be able to process all the cases and hence they will take a 20 minute rises to allow for some more negotiations.
During this time the officer that had charged me was talking to his other police friends and trying to get me intimidate me, but since I ignored it, he then decided to approached me and take more direct route.
So he came to me and asked if I still wanted to go to trial and I said yes, to which he replies if I loose it is 3 points and the fine can be as high as $300, (hmm, I doubt it, the set fine is set and there is no court fees to be added) then he asked so what are you saying? Were you not speeding? Now, I found that very sneaky and dirty, why would he be there trying to get me to plead guilty? So I simply did not answer and shook my shoulders, so he asked what does that mean? I replied it means I have invested time and effort and I think I would like to go to trial.
Two minutes later he came back and asked if I had my ticket, I gave it to him and he said "I go with the last 3 digits, looks like I got the wrong book"
I was not sure what that meant, then he went on to say it is better for you, I said "I'm not sure what that means" playing dumb, this is when he tells me that he does not have his evidence and he will have to go and tell the prosecutor, nice...
So, the prosecutor calls my name and states no sufficient evidence and she is withdrawing the charge. I am free to go, great...

The one thing if anyone is reading this to learn here is, do not back down, go all the way and plead not guilty, you never know how you may get lucky, but if you do not and decide to take a plea deal, rest assured that you will have that offence on your record for a number of years and your insurance will penalize you for at least 3 years.

Contrary to popular believe, by getting your ticket reduced from 3 pts to no points, does not mean your insurance rate will not get affected.
Most insurance companies will forgive a minor speeding ticket, but the second one will not be forgiven.
Insurance companies do not differentiate between 10 km/h over the speed limit or 30, the cut off is 45 km/h over the posted speed limit.
You can verify this by simply checking out some of the online insurance quoting websites, or calling your agent...

Do not let the prosecutor intimidate you, he/she is doing this for a living, all they want is a W in the in win column, they do not care how much you pay in fines.


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by: fredfred on
Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:30 pm

Observer135 wrote:During this time the officer that had charged me was talking to his other police friends and trying to get me intimidate me, but since I ignored it, he then decided to approached me and take more direct route.
When I went for a court appearance a few years ago I had an officer like that. Before the trial he kept asking me questions when the prosecutor stepped out of the room and he even asked me what I had in the file folder I kept my notes in. As he said it, he reached out and tried to grab the folder to take a look and I had to pull it back off the table. Out in the courtroom during a break he started into it again. I found the best approach was to just smile at him and not respond. When the JP stayed the case it was hard to not look at him to see what expression he had on his face. I didn't want him to take it as a personal thing as he was a weird character...


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by: viper1 on
Mon Jan 24, 2011 11:44 pm

fredfred wrote:
Observer135 wrote:During this time the officer that had charged me was talking to his other police friends and trying to get me intimidate me, but since I ignored it, he then decided to approached me and take more direct route.
When I went for a court appearance a few years ago I had an officer like that. Before the trial he kept asking me questions when the prosecutor stepped out of the room and he even asked me what I had in the file folder I kept my notes in. As he said it, he reached out and tried to grab the folder to take a look and I had to pull it back off the table. Out in the courtroom during a break he started into it again. I found the best approach was to just smile at him and not respond. When the JP stayed the case it was hard to not look at him to see what expression he had on his face. I didn't want him to take it as a personal thing as he was a weird character...
The bigger the bag of paper you have the better.

Dollies and file cabinets if you can get them.

It scares the bejesus out of them.

Good work.

Cheers
Viper1
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use at your own risk"


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by: diehard on
Tue Jan 25, 2011 8:15 am

Observer135 wrote: Two minutes later he came back and asked if I had my ticket, I gave it to him and he said "I go with the last 3 digits, looks like I got the wrong book"
I was not sure what that meant, then he went on to say it is better for you, I said "I'm not sure what that means" playing dumb, this is when he tells me that he does not have his evidence and he will have to go and tell the prosecutor, nice...
So, the prosecutor calls my name and states no sufficient evidence and she is withdrawing the charge. I am free to go, great...
Why would the officer bother to have the case withdrawn?
Shouldn't he let the prosecutor do all the work?

It looks that they are trying to avoid an 11b at all costs... but why?


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by: hwybear on
Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:42 pm

diehard wrote:
Observer135 wrote: Two minutes later he came back and asked if I had my ticket, I gave it to him and he said "I go with the last 3 digits, looks like I got the wrong book"
I was not sure what that meant, then he went on to say it is better for you, I said "I'm not sure what that means" playing dumb, this is when he tells me that he does not have his evidence and he will have to go and tell the prosecutor, nice...
So, the prosecutor calls my name and states no sufficient evidence and she is withdrawing the charge. I am free to go, great...
Why would the officer bother to have the case withdrawn?
Shouldn't he let the prosecutor do all the work?

It looks that they are trying to avoid an 11b at all costs... but why?
The officer would not have the case withdrawn. The officer obviously brought the wrong notebook and/or notes, realized it, so rather than waste time, the officer informed the prosecutor. Prosecutor then made decision to withdraw offence notice.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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by: hwybear on
Tue Jan 25, 2011 5:56 pm

Observer135 wrote:.Contrary to popular believe, by getting your ticket reduced from 3 pts to no points, does not mean your insurance rate will not get affected. Most insurance companies will forgive a minor speeding ticket, but the second one will not be forgiven..
The odds are so low of receiving one offence notice to start with, a second one, third etc... bad driving habits?
IE...401 in my area is 25,000 veh a day, 7 officers per shift x 2 = 14officers in 24hr period, average 10 tickets each = 140 tickets is less than 1% of vehicles getting stopped, must surely be "drawing" attention to yourself to get noticed. See driving history of some and multiple convictions and been stopped thru same area before :shock: 2 nights ago I waited 58min for a 20km over.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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by: Simon Borys on
Tue Jan 25, 2011 9:12 pm

A couple points on the original post:

1) Both the crown and the officer were wrong, the maximum find you're looking at under a part 1 prosecution if it goes to trial is $500. The set fine is irrelevant - once it goes to trial the penalty is entirely in the hands of the JP, subject to statutory minimums and maximums - the maximum in this case being $500. Most of the time after a trial the prosecutor just asks for an amount equal to what the set find would have been, but the JP is not bound by that.

2) You needn't be concerned about speaking to the officer before the trial. Anything you say to him would be hearsay during a trial and would be excluded.

Well done on sticking to your guns on not pleading. Whether you were guilty or not, I can respect someone who doesn't compromise.
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Observer135
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by: Observer135 on
Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:23 am

diehard wrote:
Observer135 wrote: Two minutes later he came back and asked if I had my ticket, I gave it to him and he said "I go with the last 3 digits, looks like I got the wrong book"
I was not sure what that meant, then he went on to say it is better for you, I said "I'm not sure what that means" playing dumb, this is when he tells me that he does not have his evidence and he will have to go and tell the prosecutor, nice...
So, the prosecutor calls my name and states no sufficient evidence and she is withdrawing the charge. I am free to go, great...
Why would the officer bother to have the case withdrawn?
Shouldn't he let the prosecutor do all the work?

It looks that they are trying to avoid an 11b at all costs... but why?
I am not sure, but if I was to hazard a guess, it would be so the public does not find out about it and every one decide to exercise their right.
They do not like that and even the JP that I went to when I was trying to get my affidavit sworn in tried to talk me out of it. He was asking me who told me I can do this? Am I a lawyer? And not in my court room, it must be a minimum of 12 months, most JPs won't allow less than 12. He completely ignored the fact that I second grounds, prosecution never provided full disclosure.
I was so happy and excited when I saw a different JP walk in the room... :D


Observer135
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by: Observer135 on
Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:38 am

Simon Borys wrote:A couple points on the original post:

1) Both the crown and the officer were wrong, the maximum find you're looking at under a part 1 prosecution if it goes to trial is $500. The set fine is irrelevant - once it goes to trial the penalty is entirely in the hands of the JP, subject to statutory minimums and maximums - the maximum in this case being $500. Most of the time after a trial the prosecutor just asks for an amount equal to what the set find would have been, but the JP is not bound by that.

2) You needn't be concerned about speaking to the officer before the trial. Anything you say to him would be hearsay during a trial and would be excluded.

Well done on sticking to your guns on not pleading. Whether you were guilty or not, I can respect someone who doesn't compromise.
Thank you for the info, learned something new today, it is a good day when I learn something new, it just added to my personal knowledge.
Honestly, I have been charged with speeding in the past, most of the time the officer gave me a break on the spot and I admitted that I was wrong and was speeding, paid the fine and did not waste any ones time, but this one was not the case, I could swear I was doing 58 not 68 in a zone of 50.
Now, no police officer in Toronto stops any one for doing 8 over, but I think he made a mistake, either he read his radar wrong because he was distracted (talking to the mailman) or whatever...
I went back to the area, I was stopped at the light less than 200 meters from the officer, when the light changed green I started moving and accelerating nice and smooth, no rush to go anywhere, I had my two little ones in the back and was trying to save on fuel.
Officer's notes say that he clocked me doing 68 at a distance and 118 meter, that allows 82 meters for me to reach 68 from a standing still with a Mazda 6, four cylinder, now, I have tested my car out, under normal acceleration, it needs about 180 to 200 meters to reach 68 km/h.
The problem is I can not argue any of this in court since I can not prove it.
But what I can prove is his radar not operating correctly, I am a calibration lab manager, been doing this for more than 13 years and when it comes to calibrations, I am certain that I can run circles around most officers.
I had a folder full of papers, even though they did not provide me with the manual for the unit, I still would be able to argue and disqualify the officer :wink:

Cheers all....
Once again, I thank every one for their help, posts and notes, this website has been a great source of information for me.


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by: hwybear on
Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:54 am

Observer135 wrote: But what I can prove is his radar not operating correctly,
With that statement ..........I'm already ahead of the game
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


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