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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:12 pm 
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FiReSTaRT wrote:
, I'd start with better training. Battering a person not posing a threat to you just to ensure compliance may have been "ok" in the 70's, but it's just plain wrong. There were enough constables out there to grapple the guy into the "proper" level of submission


We are not trained in grappling, karate, brazilian jujitsu (sp?) etc.. And just being show even a basic strike, without years of practice and muscle memory to effectively use the technique would be useless. Anyone that would train in a specialty.

We follow the use of force set out by the police services act. Each officer will act differently with the same situation as we all have different variables to consider.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:16 pm 
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1) Ok we disagree, how was this guy not A POTENTIAL THREAT, people who assault police are the ones who moves slow to comply while they formulate an improvised attack, almost every time I've been assaulted it came out of a situation where some was hesitant to comply, it's recognized indicia of assaultive behaviour...why else wouldn't you immediately comply. I watched this video seven times...I really tried to see outside the context of my police brain, but I've arrested 1000 people in my career and this guy was moving slowly, much slower than the average 'ok you got me type'...he was arguing, and bracing himself...was he trying to debate with the other officer? The kick was neither very hard and certainly not battery (a US term)...there will be no injuries beyond 'trifling and transitional' and seriously, it appeared to be more like trying to get this drunken dimwit's attention. PS Do you have a strategy that we are aware of to get a drunk to comply, immediately? If you don't think immediately is important in a crowded market where having your back to his friends or giving him a moment to prepare an attack isn't important, I'll e-mail a few videos from our training films that show you officers being seriously hurt in these types of incident...like the mounties up north a few days ago who got beaten badly...

2) Awesome! All in favour, have been for years. In jurisdiction where they have it complaints against police drop significantly...some argue police behave better, police argue that when subject learns it actually was recorded, they don't risk exaggerating or worse creating false complaints. Problem is, they ARE expensive...we've asked for them but only recently did we even get a proper computer system in our cars.

One of our traffic guys started audio recording his traffic stops, and it's cleared him in 11 complaints and three people have been criminally charged with public mischief for fabricating a complaint, all three were convicted, not bad for 6 years...

3) I'm stunned at how many people in these forums are in awe of how awesome 11b is, but if the police use in a case that has dragged almost a decade, ruined careers, marriages, lives...we need a better system! Laughable. I agree that when PEOPLE break the law, people should face timely justice...justice should be the same for everyone...

I wholeheartedly agree in principal with what you've said, I think there's room in the Victoria case to hear and see all the evidence not a short video and rush off to say we have all the evidence...if I caught you going thru a red light on video, you still get to present evidence...I'll wait to see what the judge and jury of people (like yourself) say if charges are even laid.

Police image is terrible thing to repair and trust can be difficult to regain. There needs to be a fix...but these dozen or so a year cases divided by the 67,000 professional police in Canada (each officer involved in ~264 dispatched calls, not counting traffic stops which at 1 per day - very conservative estimate - equals roughly 475 public interactions per officer per year) 67,000 police X 475 interactions = 31,825,000 divided by the 24 for so serious complaints equals....uhh...my calculator can give me that percentage it's so low.

Sure officers are rude, so is the public...I'm not too worried about that...but we look at the messy use of force complaints, the criminal charges filed against police probably hit the paper once a month, maybe every two weeks...so 24 newsworthy stories per year?


My turn...

1) Always, always, always, always comply with the police, immediately. If you don't think you should be arrested, have that conversation once you've complied and been cuffed, police listen really well when you do too. I've often un-arrested people, but often it's to secure them while an investigation is conducted. I once broke up a fight, cuffed one guy, spoke to witnesses, then took the cuffs of the guy #1 and put them on guy #2. Best part is, people remained calm and we got to the investigation part. If you feel you are being wronged or your rights infringed...guess what, we have a system for that, it's called the courts and the police complaints system...resisting is NEVER the answer. Not once, not ever...

2) Put cameras in cruisers. It'll protect officers.

3) Show the police some respect. Yes you'll demand it in return and I assure you'll likely get it in return. Yes generation ME is all about respect, and rights and anti-establishment...we all know cut out mufflers are illegal...but people don't respect their neighbours and don't respect the law...of course you are going to draw police attention, the public (our bosses) command us to take action. In plain English, obey the law...don't be drunk and disorderly in public, don't assault your spouse or anyone else for that matter, don't steal and don't drive it like it's stolen...

4) Be polite with everyone you meet in life. If someone bumps into you, apologize first, it startles them, laugh about to yourself later... I'm a 5'11 245lbs, fit police officer, but I'm generally polite with the public and hear, wow I didn't expect you to be nice. I tell them their expectations get in the way of keeping an open mind.

I've never once, on two major police departments ever seen a polite, compliant person receive anything harsher than a suspicious look. Yes innocent people get arrested, yes tickets are handed out from time to time based on varying perceptions...what can we do about that? We already have a court system as a safety check...as Doug Llewelyn used to say on the People's Court, don't take the law into your own hands...


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 24, 2010 11:53 pm 
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Well, I agree with most of your post in principle.
For starters, a note on myself. I'm not some FTP-shouting punk-teen. I'm a married man in my 30's. I also grew up in a country that didn't have a proper constitution or a set of checks and balances to keep the cops honest, so I've seen the best and the worst from law enforcement officers.
A law enforcement officer has lots of power. If that power isn't constantly held in check by a proper constitution and an investigative/punitive process, the scum that slips through the cracks gets to have a free reign and the tribal mentality that's a part of human nature allows them to hide behind the blue line. Here's an example from the "old country" back in the early 90's..
They pulled over an acquaintance of mine and her boyfriend. They gave him a beating and told her that if she doesn't allow for them to gang-rape her, they'll continue beating him up. They never faced any legal consequences because the police was also instrumental in keeping political opposition to the regime in power. This wasn't an isolated incident.
Experiences like that keep me very sensitive to police abuses. A combination of strong constitutional protection for every citizen and proper supervision of the law enforcement community ensure that corrupt scum that cheats his/her way into a position of trust thinks twice before abusing that trust.
I have also had very positive experiences in dealing with cops who handled the situations I was involved in with great tact and creativity. Actually a great majority of cops I dealt with were at worst professional and handled the situations by the books. However, we, as a society, need to make sure that those few aberrations don't get away with soiling the image of our law enforcement community.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:08 am 
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Another note on the incident on that video. I had some martial arts training and have been attacked by as many as 7 guys (locals doing some fanny-smackin').. If I were to offer physical resistance, I'd never get on the ground, especially in a multiple attacker situation. Staying on my feet would allow me to strike, grapple or run. Therefore, if I were going to put the cops' lives in danger, chances are I would have done everything in my power to stay on my feet.

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What kind of a man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 8:46 am 
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I find that the older (more experienced) the officer is, the more professional they become. Experience teaches and humbles. Especially in that profession.

I work in a building that also holds a for-profit "college" offering law and security (police foundations) programs, and I pray to every deity ever imagined into existence that the majority of these fools do not get onto any police force. They are uncouth and manifest a "look down your nose" attitude toward those they perceive as "civies" they ride the elevators with, they are incorrigibly rude to the owners/workers of the little cafe we have that services the entire office building. I have become good friends with the couple who owns the cafe over the years I've been working here and I either hear or see all of the incidents and have even piped up to tell more than one of these 20-something aged students to knock it off. They display absolutely DISGUSTING social behavior, and it's clear that these people are turned on by the power and authority given to such a position and would, by nature, abuse that.

If they do get on the force, I hope that Alymer kicks the living *EDIT* out of that attitude before they are put on the road and, just for good measure, the senior officers in their platoon reinforce it.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 12:23 pm 
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Fyrestorm, I don't agree with most of your post. I am just going to break it down a bit....

FyreStorm wrote:
The fella who gets booted approaches the police in the middle of an arrest

Wrong, look again. He was across the street. The man aproaching the police does not get arrested or kicked.

FyreStorm wrote:
his shirt is already torn, indicating perhaps he's already been in one scuffle,

Good observation, your probably right

FyreStorm wrote:
the officers order him to the ground, but have to push him down cause he goes 1/2 way

No, he imediately "gets on the ground" exactly as ordered.


FyreStorm wrote:
and then stops to start his trial on the spot,

True. But this is almost natural to do, although meaningless in the situation.

FyreStorm wrote:
they have to wrestle him to the ground and manage t get him on all fours

No, they did not have to. Since he sat down imediately when asked the first time, further instruction to lay down with hands behind back may have been sufficient, he was never given a chance.

FyreStorm wrote:
which we could argue wasn't much of a kick other than to get dummy's attention

I dont think so. That kick made quite a thud. The repeated kneeing after was quite weak though.

FyreStorm wrote:
Arguing happens later...you been ordered to the ground, "Yes sir!" No problems!

I agree. Just take a look after the first time the cop tells him to get down on the ground... sits down right away.

I dont think physical violence should have been used so quickly here. (judging soely by the brief video, We don't know what already took place) Physical violence or taser should only be used if nessicary, like if a suspect is combative. This one did not seem to be towards the officers, obviously there had been a fight, but it was over at this point. Also 10 seconds in that same cop is seen kicking another suspect already being subdued by a few officers. Even if a suspect is slow to respond to comands to put hands behind back, three officers are enough to make that happen forcefully without kicking or punching. This is what I believe the other officers were attempting to do. Only one (in the bright jacket) was at fault here IMO. I believe he needs some extra training.

At the very least this cop lacked self restraint and profesionalism. If you believe this cop was acting professionaly then you need to give your head a shake.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:45 pm 
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Dialogue is good.

1) This guy WAS moving toward police, they both were...and seeing as police esentially walked past the first guy, something else (out of camera frame) clearly drew their attention...again I await ALL the facts...

However this guy's shirt was torn, from a previous assault, had he already been described to police as violent or assaultive? Again we don't know...Had he throttled someone already? Hence the need for police to respond to this area...would you be more inclined to give somebody who had just inflicted violence on someone else more or less leeway when ti came to using force when arresting him.

2) I've arrested 1000 people in my career...this guy was taking his sweet A** time getting to the ground...people who assault police, stall and hesitate as they build courage and a plan...psychologists and police trainers around the world tell officers if people start stalling on you when you give clear commands, get ready...a study of officers killed on duty almost always reveals the bad moving deliberately and slowly prior to attack. I tried to find the video of the 6'5, 270 lbs Texas trooper who faced this EXACT scenario, his dash cam recorded the 5'9 medium build guy surprise him, get him off balance and kill him with his own gun. This was a season officer who died because action beats reaction...

3) While it may be natural to want to argue your case in the middle of an arrest, it never works and it could be part of a distraction...I've seen it happen...

4) From the time a decision to arrest is made, every second counts, people don't resist / assault police until this process starts, it's very important that the arrest occur quickly, cuffs on, problem over...with a large liquor filled crowd in the area, all the more reason this officer likely wanted this guy under control in a second...during a similar incident in our city a few years back, the guy goes down, officer struggle to get him cuffed, both officers suffered serious injuries when the crowd started lobbing beer bottle at them, one officer had to have surgery to save an eye...all cause they dilly dallied with bad guy...mob mentality is no place you EVER want to be.

Alcohol is liquid courage...not the real deal...

5) A sound in no indicia of the strength of the blow...I good bitch slap can't stop a whole room of people...but despite making a shocking sound, isn't taking anybody out of the fight...similarly in training, we kick each other around (and no we don't complain about it) and some really loud wallops are just flat surface contact, whereas some bone busting blows make little or no noise...

6) I agree there was little need for violence...by those in attendace BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED...nobody's upset aboput the 8 people fighting and causing police to be there...aren't they the ultimate coause of this incident?

I'm defending this guy, also not nailing him to a cross either...I like facts, so do juries...not saying this was right or wrong, merely that it's not clear cut or one sided as someonew who hasn't worked in law enforcement might make it out to be...

No matter what you might think, there are far more assaults against police then there are the other way...they get a slap on the wrist...


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