I wrote this article in response to another post regarding an on-duty police fficer involved in an MVC a a result of what appears to be some boneheadedness on his behalf...but it's a good talking point...so I've reposted it here to get other perspectives... At most collisions these days civilians get to go to the Collision Reporting Center, no charges are laid and life moves forward. Officers like this fellow, have a police investigation, get charged, also get charged under the Police Service Act for Discreditable Conduct and generally demoted (loss of pay of about $10,000) for a year, this prevents them from promotion for 5 years (~$10,000 per year) and having raised the ire of their commands staff don't get considered for placement in specialty units. I suppose we should expect officers to be perfect, and to some degree we do. Or at least to some degree, lead by example. But they are people too. We all forget that too often. I could see if this was an incredibly rare scenario we could say bad cop! But it happens from time to time so perhaps we have to accept that they are people and people often use bad judgement. We all do, otherwise this forum wouldn't exist (I think it was good judgment to implement www.ohta.ca, but it's here cause we often use bad judgement! LOL!) And way too many people here spout about police being 'Judge, Jury and Executioner', I have to laugh at this. There isn't any sanction that an officer can hand out that isn't subject to proper judicial review. There has never once in the history of Canada has an officer been a judge, even sat on a jury (they are exempt from jury duty) and well, we haven't had an executioner in decades. So let's chill with the hyperbole... I think a lot of people get upset cause they believe officers get away with stuff...having spent 22 years in policing I can assure you officers face more discipline than the public sees. For things the public wouldn't get punished for. When these officers are punished it's seldom lightly, but internal discipline doesn't often make the papers. The entire concept of law is to punish bad behaviour and in doing so act as a deterent to others. In many places in the world stealing results in getting your hand lopped off...pretty severe huh? And yet people continue to steal in these countries...so no matter the punishment people will be people. It's the same with the HTA, no matter how severe the punishments, people will speed, drive carelessly, talk & text etc... So the best system we have is progressive discipline, i.e. points, insurance rates and suspensions. I'm certain this officer was sanctioned, in fact I'm sure it was severe. Police administrators are very embarassed by this type of boneheaded driving and the resulting publicity and monetary costs. They punish severely. I suppose we could argue that he should be fired. But that doesn't fit into progressive discipline as adopted under the Police Services Act, a government regulation. Don't get me wrong, aside from punishments, he has set himself up for dismissal should he do something this dumb again. Would you get canned from you job at Pizza Pizza etc for doing this? Yes! But they could can you for being late to work once. That's not how government (and because of that employees of all levels of government have certain rights and we all know how many people cling to their 'rights' in court) works. In the end, this appears to be a dumb-dumb head move which I am 100% that was punished. Moreso than if you had been driving. I understand many of us get upset cause we've had a ticket or two. But have we ever stopped to think, 'Hey, I regulalry speed, know my muffler sounds cool even though it's not street legal, drive a little aggressively.' I have known officers for years, people that go to church, coach kids soccer, volunteer in their coimmunities and if you were one of these people, a good normal person, who had to go to just one fatal accident and hold someone while they died or listened to the agony of a father crying, both legs trapped and crushed under the dash while his 15 year old daughter lay dead in the passenger seat, because of some kid racing his Honda Civic or daddy's BMW... What effect would this have on you? Are cops overzealous? Maybe. Why? Maybe cause they actually care. Do they get it wrong? I've never thought so...in 22 years in the biz I've never once thought I've seen a unclasped seatbelt that wasn't actually unclasped. Do we ALL need to be held to a high standard? Yes, police, the public need to work together to make our roads safe. Don't come down on the 29,000 other police officers cause you've heard a handful of bad driving stories by officers... Are their quotas? Not on either of the police services that I've worked on. I've heard stories of officer who are dishonest, they're relatively rare, but you go to traffic court and you'd swear every officer 'made it up, got the wrong guy, the radar wasn't working right...' Who are the liars? Really? Sure you were doing 167km/h in an 80 km/h, but you're trial took 11 months...so morally you've been wronged...good for you. But society will always stand on the side of those trying to make our streets safe. Everyday there's a story of family permanently destroyed by people who don't obey the road laws... How would you feel if the police let a speeder go with a warning, the MTO didn't have the points to suspend the licence of the road racer who killed your brother/sister/spouse/parent/child? How WOULD you feel? This is my Saturday morning rant...
We are not trained in grappling, karate, brazilian jujitsu (sp?) etc.. And just being show even a basic strike, without years of practice and muscle memory to effectively use the technique would be useless. Anyone that would train in a specialty. We follow the use of force set out by the police services act. Each officer will act differently with the same situation as we all have different variables to consider.
FiReSTaRT wrote:
, I'd start with better training. Battering a person not posing a threat to you just to ensure compliance may have been "ok" in the 70's, but it's just plain wrong. There were enough constables out there to grapple the guy into the "proper" level of submission
We are not trained in grappling, karate, brazilian jujitsu (sp?) etc.. And just being show even a basic strike, without years of practice and muscle memory to effectively use the technique would be useless. Anyone that would train in a specialty.
We follow the use of force set out by the police services act. Each officer will act differently with the same situation as we all have different variables to consider.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
1) Ok we disagree, how was this guy not A POTENTIAL THREAT, people who assault police are the ones who moves slow to comply while they formulate an improvised attack, almost every time I've been assaulted it came out of a situation where some was hesitant to comply, it's recognized indicia of assaultive behaviour...why else wouldn't you immediately comply. I watched this video seven times...I really tried to see outside the context of my police brain, but I've arrested 1000 people in my career and this guy was moving slowly, much slower than the average 'ok you got me type'...he was arguing, and bracing himself...was he trying to debate with the other officer? The kick was neither very hard and certainly not battery (a US term)...there will be no injuries beyond 'trifling and transitional' and seriously, it appeared to be more like trying to get this drunken dimwit's attention. PS Do you have a strategy that we are aware of to get a drunk to comply, immediately? If you don't think immediately is important in a crowded market where having your back to his friends or giving him a moment to prepare an attack isn't important, I'll e-mail a few videos from our training films that show you officers being seriously hurt in these types of incident...like the mounties up north a few days ago who got beaten badly... 2) Awesome! All in favour, have been for years. In jurisdiction where they have it complaints against police drop significantly...some argue police behave better, police argue that when subject learns it actually was recorded, they don't risk exaggerating or worse creating false complaints. Problem is, they ARE expensive...we've asked for them but only recently did we even get a proper computer system in our cars. One of our traffic guys started audio recording his traffic stops, and it's cleared him in 11 complaints and three people have been criminally charged with public mischief for fabricating a complaint, all three were convicted, not bad for 6 years... 3) I'm stunned at how many people in these forums are in awe of how awesome 11b is, but if the police use in a case that has dragged almost a decade, ruined careers, marriages, lives...we need a better system! Laughable. I agree that when PEOPLE break the law, people should face timely justice...justice should be the same for everyone... I wholeheartedly agree in principal with what you've said, I think there's room in the Victoria case to hear and see all the evidence not a short video and rush off to say we have all the evidence...if I caught you going thru a red light on video, you still get to present evidence...I'll wait to see what the judge and jury of people (like yourself) say if charges are even laid. Police image is terrible thing to repair and trust can be difficult to regain. There needs to be a fix...but these dozen or so a year cases divided by the 67,000 professional police in Canada (each officer involved in ~264 dispatched calls, not counting traffic stops which at 1 per day - very conservative estimate - equals roughly 475 public interactions per officer per year) 67,000 police X 475 interactions = 31,825,000 divided by the 24 for so serious complaints equals....uhh...my calculator can give me that percentage it's so low. Sure officers are rude, so is the public...I'm not too worried about that...but we look at the messy use of force complaints, the criminal charges filed against police probably hit the paper once a month, maybe every two weeks...so 24 newsworthy stories per year? My turn... 1) Always, always, always, always comply with the police, immediately. If you don't think you should be arrested, have that conversation once you've complied and been cuffed, police listen really well when you do too. I've often un-arrested people, but often it's to secure them while an investigation is conducted. I once broke up a fight, cuffed one guy, spoke to witnesses, then took the cuffs of the guy #1 and put them on guy #2. Best part is, people remained calm and we got to the investigation part. If you feel you are being wronged or your rights infringed...guess what, we have a system for that, it's called the courts and the police complaints system...resisting is NEVER the answer. Not once, not ever... 2) Put cameras in cruisers. It'll protect officers. 3) Show the police some respect. Yes you'll demand it in return and I assure you'll likely get it in return. Yes generation ME is all about respect, and rights and anti-establishment...we all know cut out mufflers are illegal...but people don't respect their neighbours and don't respect the law...of course you are going to draw police attention, the public (our bosses) command us to take action. In plain English, obey the law...don't be drunk and disorderly in public, don't assault your spouse or anyone else for that matter, don't steal and don't drive it like it's stolen... 4) Be polite with everyone you meet in life. If someone bumps into you, apologize first, it startles them, laugh about to yourself later... I'm a 5'11 245lbs, fit police officer, but I'm generally polite with the public and hear, wow I didn't expect you to be nice. I tell them their expectations get in the way of keeping an open mind. I've never once, on two major police departments ever seen a polite, compliant person receive anything harsher than a suspicious look. Yes innocent people get arrested, yes tickets are handed out from time to time based on varying perceptions...what can we do about that? We already have a court system as a safety check...as Doug Llewelyn used to say on the People's Court, don't take the law into your own hands...
1) Ok we disagree, how was this guy not A POTENTIAL THREAT, people who assault police are the ones who moves slow to comply while they formulate an improvised attack, almost every time I've been assaulted it came out of a situation where some was hesitant to comply, it's recognized indicia of assaultive behaviour...why else wouldn't you immediately comply. I watched this video seven times...I really tried to see outside the context of my police brain, but I've arrested 1000 people in my career and this guy was moving slowly, much slower than the average 'ok you got me type'...he was arguing, and bracing himself...was he trying to debate with the other officer? The kick was neither very hard and certainly not battery (a US term)...there will be no injuries beyond 'trifling and transitional' and seriously, it appeared to be more like trying to get this drunken dimwit's attention. PS Do you have a strategy that we are aware of to get a drunk to comply, immediately? If you don't think immediately is important in a crowded market where having your back to his friends or giving him a moment to prepare an attack isn't important, I'll e-mail a few videos from our training films that show you officers being seriously hurt in these types of incident...like the mounties up north a few days ago who got beaten badly...
2) Awesome! All in favour, have been for years. In jurisdiction where they have it complaints against police drop significantly...some argue police behave better, police argue that when subject learns it actually was recorded, they don't risk exaggerating or worse creating false complaints. Problem is, they ARE expensive...we've asked for them but only recently did we even get a proper computer system in our cars.
One of our traffic guys started audio recording his traffic stops, and it's cleared him in 11 complaints and three people have been criminally charged with public mischief for fabricating a complaint, all three were convicted, not bad for 6 years...
3) I'm stunned at how many people in these forums are in awe of how awesome 11b is, but if the police use in a case that has dragged almost a decade, ruined careers, marriages, lives...we need a better system! Laughable. I agree that when PEOPLE break the law, people should face timely justice...justice should be the same for everyone...
I wholeheartedly agree in principal with what you've said, I think there's room in the Victoria case to hear and see all the evidence not a short video and rush off to say we have all the evidence...if I caught you going thru a red light on video, you still get to present evidence...I'll wait to see what the judge and jury of people (like yourself) say if charges are even laid.
Police image is terrible thing to repair and trust can be difficult to regain. There needs to be a fix...but these dozen or so a year cases divided by the 67,000 professional police in Canada (each officer involved in ~264 dispatched calls, not counting traffic stops which at 1 per day - very conservative estimate - equals roughly 475 public interactions per officer per year) 67,000 police X 475 interactions = 31,825,000 divided by the 24 for so serious complaints equals....uhh...my calculator can give me that percentage it's so low.
Sure officers are rude, so is the public...I'm not too worried about that...but we look at the messy use of force complaints, the criminal charges filed against police probably hit the paper once a month, maybe every two weeks...so 24 newsworthy stories per year?
My turn...
1) Always, always, always, always comply with the police, immediately. If you don't think you should be arrested, have that conversation once you've complied and been cuffed, police listen really well when you do too. I've often un-arrested people, but often it's to secure them while an investigation is conducted. I once broke up a fight, cuffed one guy, spoke to witnesses, then took the cuffs of the guy #1 and put them on guy #2. Best part is, people remained calm and we got to the investigation part. If you feel you are being wronged or your rights infringed...guess what, we have a system for that, it's called the courts and the police complaints system...resisting is NEVER the answer. Not once, not ever...
2) Put cameras in cruisers. It'll protect officers.
3) Show the police some respect. Yes you'll demand it in return and I assure you'll likely get it in return. Yes generation ME is all about respect, and rights and anti-establishment...we all know cut out mufflers are illegal...but people don't respect their neighbours and don't respect the law...of course you are going to draw police attention, the public (our bosses) command us to take action. In plain English, obey the law...don't be drunk and disorderly in public, don't assault your spouse or anyone else for that matter, don't steal and don't drive it like it's stolen...
4) Be polite with everyone you meet in life. If someone bumps into you, apologize first, it startles them, laugh about to yourself later... I'm a 5'11 245lbs, fit police officer, but I'm generally polite with the public and hear, wow I didn't expect you to be nice. I tell them their expectations get in the way of keeping an open mind.
I've never once, on two major police departments ever seen a polite, compliant person receive anything harsher than a suspicious look. Yes innocent people get arrested, yes tickets are handed out from time to time based on varying perceptions...what can we do about that? We already have a court system as a safety check...as Doug Llewelyn used to say on the People's Court, don't take the law into your own hands...
Well, I agree with most of your post in principle. For starters, a note on myself. I'm not some FTP-shouting punk-teen. I'm a married man in my 30's. I also grew up in a country that didn't have a proper constitution or a set of checks and balances to keep the cops honest, so I've seen the best and the worst from law enforcement officers. A law enforcement officer has lots of power. If that power isn't constantly held in check by a proper constitution and an investigative/punitive process, the scum that slips through the cracks gets to have a free reign and the tribal mentality that's a part of human nature allows them to hide behind the blue line. Here's an example from the "old country" back in the early 90's.. They pulled over an acquaintance of mine and her boyfriend. They gave him a beating and told her that if she doesn't allow for them to gang-rape her, they'll continue beating him up. They never faced any legal consequences because the police was also instrumental in keeping political opposition to the regime in power. This wasn't an isolated incident. Experiences like that keep me very sensitive to police abuses. A combination of strong constitutional protection for every citizen and proper supervision of the law enforcement community ensure that corrupt scum that cheats his/her way into a position of trust thinks twice before abusing that trust. I have also had very positive experiences in dealing with cops who handled the situations I was involved in with great tact and creativity. Actually a great majority of cops I dealt with were at worst professional and handled the situations by the books. However, we, as a society, need to make sure that those few aberrations don't get away with soiling the image of our law enforcement community.
Well, I agree with most of your post in principle.
For starters, a note on myself. I'm not some FTP-shouting punk-teen. I'm a married man in my 30's. I also grew up in a country that didn't have a proper constitution or a set of checks and balances to keep the cops honest, so I've seen the best and the worst from law enforcement officers.
A law enforcement officer has lots of power. If that power isn't constantly held in check by a proper constitution and an investigative/punitive process, the scum that slips through the cracks gets to have a free reign and the tribal mentality that's a part of human nature allows them to hide behind the blue line. Here's an example from the "old country" back in the early 90's..
They pulled over an acquaintance of mine and her boyfriend. They gave him a beating and told her that if she doesn't allow for them to gang-rape her, they'll continue beating him up. They never faced any legal consequences because the police was also instrumental in keeping political opposition to the regime in power. This wasn't an isolated incident.
Experiences like that keep me very sensitive to police abuses. A combination of strong constitutional protection for every citizen and proper supervision of the law enforcement community ensure that corrupt scum that cheats his/her way into a position of trust thinks twice before abusing that trust.
I have also had very positive experiences in dealing with cops who handled the situations I was involved in with great tact and creativity. Actually a great majority of cops I dealt with were at worst professional and handled the situations by the books. However, we, as a society, need to make sure that those few aberrations don't get away with soiling the image of our law enforcement community.
What kind of a man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.
Another note on the incident on that video. I had some martial arts training and have been attacked by as many as 7 guys (locals doing some fanny-smackin').. If I were to offer physical resistance, I'd never get on the ground, especially in a multiple attacker situation. Staying on my feet would allow me to strike, grapple or run. Therefore, if I were going to put the cops' lives in danger, chances are I would have done everything in my power to stay on my feet.
Another note on the incident on that video. I had some martial arts training and have been attacked by as many as 7 guys (locals doing some fanny-smackin').. If I were to offer physical resistance, I'd never get on the ground, especially in a multiple attacker situation. Staying on my feet would allow me to strike, grapple or run. Therefore, if I were going to put the cops' lives in danger, chances are I would have done everything in my power to stay on my feet.
What kind of a man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.
I find that the older (more experienced) the officer is, the more professional they become. Experience teaches and humbles. Especially in that profession. I work in a building that also holds a for-profit "college" offering law and security (police foundations) programs, and I pray to every deity ever imagined into existence that the majority of these fools do not get onto any police force. They are uncouth and manifest a "look down your nose" attitude toward those they perceive as "civies" they ride the elevators with, they are incorrigibly rude to the owners/workers of the little cafe we have that services the entire office building. I have become good friends with the couple who owns the cafe over the years I've been working here and I either hear or see all of the incidents and have even piped up to tell more than one of these 20-something aged students to knock it off. They display absolutely DISGUSTING social behavior, and it's clear that these people are turned on by the power and authority given to such a position and would, by nature, abuse that. If they do get on the force, I hope that Alymer kicks the living *EDIT* out of that attitude before they are put on the road and, just for good measure, the senior officers in their platoon reinforce it.
I find that the older (more experienced) the officer is, the more professional they become. Experience teaches and humbles. Especially in that profession.
I work in a building that also holds a for-profit "college" offering law and security (police foundations) programs, and I pray to every deity ever imagined into existence that the majority of these fools do not get onto any police force. They are uncouth and manifest a "look down your nose" attitude toward those they perceive as "civies" they ride the elevators with, they are incorrigibly rude to the owners/workers of the little cafe we have that services the entire office building. I have become good friends with the couple who owns the cafe over the years I've been working here and I either hear or see all of the incidents and have even piped up to tell more than one of these 20-something aged students to knock it off. They display absolutely DISGUSTING social behavior, and it's clear that these people are turned on by the power and authority given to such a position and would, by nature, abuse that.
If they do get on the force, I hope that Alymer kicks the living *EDIT* out of that attitude before they are put on the road and, just for good measure, the senior officers in their platoon reinforce it.
Fyrestorm, I don't agree with most of your post. I am just going to break it down a bit.... Wrong, look again. He was across the street. The man aproaching the police does not get arrested or kicked. Good observation, your probably right No, he imediately "gets on the ground" exactly as ordered. True. But this is almost natural to do, although meaningless in the situation. No, they did not have to. Since he sat down imediately when asked the first time, further instruction to lay down with hands behind back may have been sufficient, he was never given a chance. I dont think so. That kick made quite a thud. The repeated kneeing after was quite weak though. I agree. Just take a look after the first time the cop tells him to get down on the ground... sits down right away. I dont think physical violence should have been used so quickly here. (judging soely by the brief video, We don't know what already took place) Physical violence or taser should only be used if nessicary, like if a suspect is combative. This one did not seem to be towards the officers, obviously there had been a fight, but it was over at this point. Also 10 seconds in that same cop is seen kicking another suspect already being subdued by a few officers. Even if a suspect is slow to respond to comands to put hands behind back, three officers are enough to make that happen forcefully without kicking or punching. This is what I believe the other officers were attempting to do. Only one (in the bright jacket) was at fault here IMO. I believe he needs some extra training. At the very least this cop lacked self restraint and profesionalism. If you believe this cop was acting professionaly then you need to give your head a shake.
Fyrestorm, I don't agree with most of your post. I am just going to break it down a bit....
FyreStorm wrote:
The fella who gets booted approaches the police in the middle of an arrest
Wrong, look again. He was across the street. The man aproaching the police does not get arrested or kicked.
FyreStorm wrote:
his shirt is already torn, indicating perhaps he's already been in one scuffle,
Good observation, your probably right
FyreStorm wrote:
the officers order him to the ground, but have to push him down cause he goes 1/2 way
No, he imediately "gets on the ground" exactly as ordered.
FyreStorm wrote:
and then stops to start his trial on the spot,
True. But this is almost natural to do, although meaningless in the situation.
FyreStorm wrote:
they have to wrestle him to the ground and manage t get him on all fours
No, they did not have to. Since he sat down imediately when asked the first time, further instruction to lay down with hands behind back may have been sufficient, he was never given a chance.
FyreStorm wrote:
which we could argue wasn't much of a kick other than to get dummy's attention
I dont think so. That kick made quite a thud. The repeated kneeing after was quite weak though.
FyreStorm wrote:
Arguing happens later...you been ordered to the ground, "Yes sir!" No problems!
I agree. Just take a look after the first time the cop tells him to get down on the ground... sits down right away.
I dont think physical violence should have been used so quickly here. (judging soely by the brief video, We don't know what already took place) Physical violence or taser should only be used if nessicary, like if a suspect is combative. This one did not seem to be towards the officers, obviously there had been a fight, but it was over at this point. Also 10 seconds in that same cop is seen kicking another suspect already being subdued by a few officers. Even if a suspect is slow to respond to comands to put hands behind back, three officers are enough to make that happen forcefully without kicking or punching. This is what I believe the other officers were attempting to do. Only one (in the bright jacket) was at fault here IMO. I believe he needs some extra training.
At the very least this cop lacked self restraint and profesionalism. If you believe this cop was acting professionaly then you need to give your head a shake.
Dialogue is good. 1) This guy WAS moving toward police, they both were...and seeing as police esentially walked past the first guy, something else (out of camera frame) clearly drew their attention...again I await ALL the facts... However this guy's shirt was torn, from a previous assault, had he already been described to police as violent or assaultive? Again we don't know...Had he throttled someone already? Hence the need for police to respond to this area...would you be more inclined to give somebody who had just inflicted violence on someone else more or less leeway when ti came to using force when arresting him. 2) I've arrested 1000 people in my career...this guy was taking his sweet A** time getting to the ground...people who assault police, stall and hesitate as they build courage and a plan...psychologists and police trainers around the world tell officers if people start stalling on you when you give clear commands, get ready...a study of officers killed on duty almost always reveals the bad moving deliberately and slowly prior to attack. I tried to find the video of the 6'5, 270 lbs Texas trooper who faced this EXACT scenario, his dash cam recorded the 5'9 medium build guy surprise him, get him off balance and kill him with his own gun. This was a season officer who died because action beats reaction... 3) While it may be natural to want to argue your case in the middle of an arrest, it never works and it could be part of a distraction...I've seen it happen... 4) From the time a decision to arrest is made, every second counts, people don't resist / assault police until this process starts, it's very important that the arrest occur quickly, cuffs on, problem over...with a large liquor filled crowd in the area, all the more reason this officer likely wanted this guy under control in a second...during a similar incident in our city a few years back, the guy goes down, officer struggle to get him cuffed, both officers suffered serious injuries when the crowd started lobbing beer bottle at them, one officer had to have surgery to save an eye...all cause they dilly dallied with bad guy...mob mentality is no place you EVER want to be. Alcohol is liquid courage...not the real deal... 5) A sound in no indicia of the strength of the blow...I good bitch slap can't stop a whole room of people...but despite making a shocking sound, isn't taking anybody out of the fight...similarly in training, we kick each other around (and no we don't complain about it) and some really loud wallops are just flat surface contact, whereas some bone busting blows make little or no noise... 6) I agree there was little need for violence...by those in attendace BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED...nobody's upset aboput the 8 people fighting and causing police to be there...aren't they the ultimate coause of this incident? I'm defending this guy, also not nailing him to a cross either...I like facts, so do juries...not saying this was right or wrong, merely that it's not clear cut or one sided as someonew who hasn't worked in law enforcement might make it out to be... No matter what you might think, there are far more assaults against police then there are the other way...they get a slap on the wrist...
Dialogue is good.
1) This guy WAS moving toward police, they both were...and seeing as police esentially walked past the first guy, something else (out of camera frame) clearly drew their attention...again I await ALL the facts...
However this guy's shirt was torn, from a previous assault, had he already been described to police as violent or assaultive? Again we don't know...Had he throttled someone already? Hence the need for police to respond to this area...would you be more inclined to give somebody who had just inflicted violence on someone else more or less leeway when ti came to using force when arresting him.
2) I've arrested 1000 people in my career...this guy was taking his sweet A** time getting to the ground...people who assault police, stall and hesitate as they build courage and a plan...psychologists and police trainers around the world tell officers if people start stalling on you when you give clear commands, get ready...a study of officers killed on duty almost always reveals the bad moving deliberately and slowly prior to attack. I tried to find the video of the 6'5, 270 lbs Texas trooper who faced this EXACT scenario, his dash cam recorded the 5'9 medium build guy surprise him, get him off balance and kill him with his own gun. This was a season officer who died because action beats reaction...
3) While it may be natural to want to argue your case in the middle of an arrest, it never works and it could be part of a distraction...I've seen it happen...
4) From the time a decision to arrest is made, every second counts, people don't resist / assault police until this process starts, it's very important that the arrest occur quickly, cuffs on, problem over...with a large liquor filled crowd in the area, all the more reason this officer likely wanted this guy under control in a second...during a similar incident in our city a few years back, the guy goes down, officer struggle to get him cuffed, both officers suffered serious injuries when the crowd started lobbing beer bottle at them, one officer had to have surgery to save an eye...all cause they dilly dallied with bad guy...mob mentality is no place you EVER want to be.
Alcohol is liquid courage...not the real deal...
5) A sound in no indicia of the strength of the blow...I good bitch slap can't stop a whole room of people...but despite making a shocking sound, isn't taking anybody out of the fight...similarly in training, we kick each other around (and no we don't complain about it) and some really loud wallops are just flat surface contact, whereas some bone busting blows make little or no noise...
6) I agree there was little need for violence...by those in attendace BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED...nobody's upset aboput the 8 people fighting and causing police to be there...aren't they the ultimate coause of this incident?
I'm defending this guy, also not nailing him to a cross either...I like facts, so do juries...not saying this was right or wrong, merely that it's not clear cut or one sided as someonew who hasn't worked in law enforcement might make it out to be...
No matter what you might think, there are far more assaults against police then there are the other way...they get a slap on the wrist...
Am really confused about this one, this morning i got a reduced speeding ticket (80km speed in 60 zone), and in the ticket the cop wrote 10km over the speeding limit.. and it has the 'R' code in it.. and the cop said i need to pay this and it doesn't have any points on it..
im fine with paying the ticket which is only 40 dollars but my biggest concern, will it show in my record ? or only tickets…
I got a ticket for driving with handheld device in Oct 2015 and I had requested for a trial. Yesterday I received the notice of trial (notice is dated 26-Jan-2017, court of trial is Newmarket, ON) and trial date is Mar 8, 2017. Today, I have sent in a registered request for disclosure (i.e on 29-Jan-2017).
Need some help here for the 1st time speeding ticket?
Sunday morning 12:10am when I was going home from work I was doing bit speeding on Gardiner. I was going with about 130km/h. I know its fast. I always take the same way and I know where the cops hide. They always hide entrance of the highways. If I will do speeding I always look my back and did look this time too. I took gardiner…
I just have a question in regards to the summons Under Part 1 I received for an rear end accident:
I was driving on the 2 lane road, and the car in front of me suddenly stopped, I had seen the car, and so I started to brake, however I heard noise from the back and looked int o the rear view mirror and saw a huge "truck" so I decided to go right, took the feet out of brakes but couldnt…
I have searched and I know the general rule is no, barring criminal charges or tresspassing. So let me use 2 specific issues I have.
1) I have some business in some area malls after hours. Once I have pulled into the mall lot on the way to the closest door I rarely stop at stop signs unless there is a car or person nearby. (i do not carelessly speed, i do show caution, just do not fully stop) Can…
In June at 401 London and Wellington I got hit twice, speeding which I didn't realize I was doing and cell phone. The Officer made me open my purse and show him my phone. I was going to meet a Rep of my Company in Kitchener, he called I answered. WRONG! The Officer wasn't even nice. My record was clean and he slapped me twice. I sat in the car and sobbed for 20 minutes as I was scared out of…
I wanted to "reply" elsewhere...but the more appropriate areas were "locked" to replies....so, here are a couple of questions...from a newbie to this site:
1. Who ARE you? (I'm a little edgy about conversing on a forum whose ownership is not stated anywhere on an "About" page") No offense intended whatsoever. Just like to know who I'm talking with/in front of.......your honor!
You are coming off of a highway exit and there are 3 lanes: right hand lane for right hand turn; middle lane for left AND right turn (but no straight thru since it is only a three-way intersection); and left lane for left hand turn. You are first in the middle lane, signalling to make a right.
CAN YOU make a right hand turn from the middle lane on a red if the traffic is clear?
Hey everyone first off I'd like to say great website, I have been reading and it is very useful
I'm posting today as I'd like to get some feedback on my situation and have a couple of questions. Please excuse the vagueness in some areas - I don't want my case to be identifiable given the small town.
So I was driving up north and was pulled over by an OPP SUV for doing 31 over. Cop drove past me,…
Hello! I'm under 16 currently and really want to drive. I know that section 37(1) says you have to be 16, but I've read that the HTA does not apply when you are in private property, so does that mean I can drive in a parking lot if I wanted to?
I was heading northbound on my bike downtown on friday. After the east/westbound lights went red and after a long pause I decided to get a head start and proceed before the light changed to green. About a block north of me an officer stepped out of an unmarked cruiser and pulled me over and gave me a $180 ticket. Now I see on this site that I should have been given points for it..but…
Got a ticket Saturday for insecure load. The officer was a real jerk and unfair. I had nothing hanging out the sides and the load wasn't that high. Just taking some junk to the dump. I was doing 40 on Ashley St in Foxboro, 4 ways on taking my time and nothing was going to fall out. I'm thinking about fighting it. Anyone experienced this before?
So I got convicted of a dui.. I have been riding my bike in the snow and taking the bus. I am a driving enthusiast and I will be going to the race track all summer but I NEED to drive something right now!
I have done lots of research and even an electric assisted bike that a 16 year old can drive legally on the road is not an option to someone with a dui suspension.
Hey this is my first ticket so as much information that people can provide will be appreciated. I was making the drive home going around 90kph(in a 80) behind what I knew was an undercover police car. The cop abruptly pulled to the side and pulled back in behind me to pull me over. Now I reduced my speed to below 80 when the cop pulled to the side but he claimed he had me clocked at 109kph and…
So I was heading home to today and I was in the left lane of the off ramp, some lady cut across her lane of traffic and across the off ramp median and hit the back side of my car! After a few meters of bumping (I was dazed and confused) I stopped the car.
I call 911 and was told to move the car to the shoulder.
Cop comes, interviews both of us, and lets the lady go! The cop proceeds to give…
An undercover cop, well not sure if he was even a cop to be honest, maybe a constable pulled me over after I passed him shortly after a construction zone. He asked me if I was in a rush and said that he was going 105 and I was going 120. It seems mostly from our conversation that he was pissed off that I passed him, because he never told me that I was speeding. None the less the ticket says…
I got this ticket last year in toronto and received court date recently.
Basically I parket on a street where there are marked spots for car parking but they were all faded with only the white edges showing. I assumed I was in the correct spot when I got out. I never noticed the fire hydrant in the bushes.
When I returned I saw the ticket and then noticed the fire hydrant and when I to the…
I would like to know if anybody could tell me what "V" stands for on the Code section of the Form 4. I think that it will be useful to understand what information is on this form in order to make a decision on what option we should chose.
I recently received a ticket for red light fail to stop under section 144 (18) of the Highway Traffic Act at the intersection of Dupont St. and Dufferin St. in Toronto with a set fine of $150 and total payable of $190. I think I entered the intersection on a yellow, however that is not the way the officer saw it. During the traffic stop the officer was polite bordering on friendly…
Got my first ticket last Thursday and I have a couple of questions. I was driving westbound on Moore St. (west of Bayview) and made a left onto a residential street at a 4-way stop sign. It was my first time driving through that area - was driving my girlfriend to a wisdom tooth surgery.
The police were set up to catch people, as that intersection had a no left turn sign from 7-9 am (buses…
