I wrote this article in response to another post regarding an on-duty police fficer involved in an MVC a a result of what appears to be some boneheadedness on his behalf...but it's a good talking point...so I've reposted it here to get other perspectives... At most collisions these days civilians get to go to the Collision Reporting Center, no charges are laid and life moves forward. Officers like this fellow, have a police investigation, get charged, also get charged under the Police Service Act for Discreditable Conduct and generally demoted (loss of pay of about $10,000) for a year, this prevents them from promotion for 5 years (~$10,000 per year) and having raised the ire of their commands staff don't get considered for placement in specialty units. I suppose we should expect officers to be perfect, and to some degree we do. Or at least to some degree, lead by example. But they are people too. We all forget that too often. I could see if this was an incredibly rare scenario we could say bad cop! But it happens from time to time so perhaps we have to accept that they are people and people often use bad judgement. We all do, otherwise this forum wouldn't exist (I think it was good judgment to implement www.ohta.ca, but it's here cause we often use bad judgement! LOL!) And way too many people here spout about police being 'Judge, Jury and Executioner', I have to laugh at this. There isn't any sanction that an officer can hand out that isn't subject to proper judicial review. There has never once in the history of Canada has an officer been a judge, even sat on a jury (they are exempt from jury duty) and well, we haven't had an executioner in decades. So let's chill with the hyperbole... I think a lot of people get upset cause they believe officers get away with stuff...having spent 22 years in policing I can assure you officers face more discipline than the public sees. For things the public wouldn't get punished for. When these officers are punished it's seldom lightly, but internal discipline doesn't often make the papers. The entire concept of law is to punish bad behaviour and in doing so act as a deterent to others. In many places in the world stealing results in getting your hand lopped off...pretty severe huh? And yet people continue to steal in these countries...so no matter the punishment people will be people. It's the same with the HTA, no matter how severe the punishments, people will speed, drive carelessly, talk & text etc... So the best system we have is progressive discipline, i.e. points, insurance rates and suspensions. I'm certain this officer was sanctioned, in fact I'm sure it was severe. Police administrators are very embarassed by this type of boneheaded driving and the resulting publicity and monetary costs. They punish severely. I suppose we could argue that he should be fired. But that doesn't fit into progressive discipline as adopted under the Police Services Act, a government regulation. Don't get me wrong, aside from punishments, he has set himself up for dismissal should he do something this dumb again. Would you get canned from you job at Pizza Pizza etc for doing this? Yes! But they could can you for being late to work once. That's not how government (and because of that employees of all levels of government have certain rights and we all know how many people cling to their 'rights' in court) works. In the end, this appears to be a dumb-dumb head move which I am 100% that was punished. Moreso than if you had been driving. I understand many of us get upset cause we've had a ticket or two. But have we ever stopped to think, 'Hey, I regulalry speed, know my muffler sounds cool even though it's not street legal, drive a little aggressively.' I have known officers for years, people that go to church, coach kids soccer, volunteer in their coimmunities and if you were one of these people, a good normal person, who had to go to just one fatal accident and hold someone while they died or listened to the agony of a father crying, both legs trapped and crushed under the dash while his 15 year old daughter lay dead in the passenger seat, because of some kid racing his Honda Civic or daddy's BMW... What effect would this have on you? Are cops overzealous? Maybe. Why? Maybe cause they actually care. Do they get it wrong? I've never thought so...in 22 years in the biz I've never once thought I've seen a unclasped seatbelt that wasn't actually unclasped. Do we ALL need to be held to a high standard? Yes, police, the public need to work together to make our roads safe. Don't come down on the 29,000 other police officers cause you've heard a handful of bad driving stories by officers... Are their quotas? Not on either of the police services that I've worked on. I've heard stories of officer who are dishonest, they're relatively rare, but you go to traffic court and you'd swear every officer 'made it up, got the wrong guy, the radar wasn't working right...' Who are the liars? Really? Sure you were doing 167km/h in an 80 km/h, but you're trial took 11 months...so morally you've been wronged...good for you. But society will always stand on the side of those trying to make our streets safe. Everyday there's a story of family permanently destroyed by people who don't obey the road laws... How would you feel if the police let a speeder go with a warning, the MTO didn't have the points to suspend the licence of the road racer who killed your brother/sister/spouse/parent/child? How WOULD you feel? This is my Saturday morning rant...
We are not trained in grappling, karate, brazilian jujitsu (sp?) etc.. And just being show even a basic strike, without years of practice and muscle memory to effectively use the technique would be useless. Anyone that would train in a specialty. We follow the use of force set out by the police services act. Each officer will act differently with the same situation as we all have different variables to consider.
FiReSTaRT wrote:
, I'd start with better training. Battering a person not posing a threat to you just to ensure compliance may have been "ok" in the 70's, but it's just plain wrong. There were enough constables out there to grapple the guy into the "proper" level of submission
We are not trained in grappling, karate, brazilian jujitsu (sp?) etc.. And just being show even a basic strike, without years of practice and muscle memory to effectively use the technique would be useless. Anyone that would train in a specialty.
We follow the use of force set out by the police services act. Each officer will act differently with the same situation as we all have different variables to consider.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
1) Ok we disagree, how was this guy not A POTENTIAL THREAT, people who assault police are the ones who moves slow to comply while they formulate an improvised attack, almost every time I've been assaulted it came out of a situation where some was hesitant to comply, it's recognized indicia of assaultive behaviour...why else wouldn't you immediately comply. I watched this video seven times...I really tried to see outside the context of my police brain, but I've arrested 1000 people in my career and this guy was moving slowly, much slower than the average 'ok you got me type'...he was arguing, and bracing himself...was he trying to debate with the other officer? The kick was neither very hard and certainly not battery (a US term)...there will be no injuries beyond 'trifling and transitional' and seriously, it appeared to be more like trying to get this drunken dimwit's attention. PS Do you have a strategy that we are aware of to get a drunk to comply, immediately? If you don't think immediately is important in a crowded market where having your back to his friends or giving him a moment to prepare an attack isn't important, I'll e-mail a few videos from our training films that show you officers being seriously hurt in these types of incident...like the mounties up north a few days ago who got beaten badly... 2) Awesome! All in favour, have been for years. In jurisdiction where they have it complaints against police drop significantly...some argue police behave better, police argue that when subject learns it actually was recorded, they don't risk exaggerating or worse creating false complaints. Problem is, they ARE expensive...we've asked for them but only recently did we even get a proper computer system in our cars. One of our traffic guys started audio recording his traffic stops, and it's cleared him in 11 complaints and three people have been criminally charged with public mischief for fabricating a complaint, all three were convicted, not bad for 6 years... 3) I'm stunned at how many people in these forums are in awe of how awesome 11b is, but if the police use in a case that has dragged almost a decade, ruined careers, marriages, lives...we need a better system! Laughable. I agree that when PEOPLE break the law, people should face timely justice...justice should be the same for everyone... I wholeheartedly agree in principal with what you've said, I think there's room in the Victoria case to hear and see all the evidence not a short video and rush off to say we have all the evidence...if I caught you going thru a red light on video, you still get to present evidence...I'll wait to see what the judge and jury of people (like yourself) say if charges are even laid. Police image is terrible thing to repair and trust can be difficult to regain. There needs to be a fix...but these dozen or so a year cases divided by the 67,000 professional police in Canada (each officer involved in ~264 dispatched calls, not counting traffic stops which at 1 per day - very conservative estimate - equals roughly 475 public interactions per officer per year) 67,000 police X 475 interactions = 31,825,000 divided by the 24 for so serious complaints equals....uhh...my calculator can give me that percentage it's so low. Sure officers are rude, so is the public...I'm not too worried about that...but we look at the messy use of force complaints, the criminal charges filed against police probably hit the paper once a month, maybe every two weeks...so 24 newsworthy stories per year? My turn... 1) Always, always, always, always comply with the police, immediately. If you don't think you should be arrested, have that conversation once you've complied and been cuffed, police listen really well when you do too. I've often un-arrested people, but often it's to secure them while an investigation is conducted. I once broke up a fight, cuffed one guy, spoke to witnesses, then took the cuffs of the guy #1 and put them on guy #2. Best part is, people remained calm and we got to the investigation part. If you feel you are being wronged or your rights infringed...guess what, we have a system for that, it's called the courts and the police complaints system...resisting is NEVER the answer. Not once, not ever... 2) Put cameras in cruisers. It'll protect officers. 3) Show the police some respect. Yes you'll demand it in return and I assure you'll likely get it in return. Yes generation ME is all about respect, and rights and anti-establishment...we all know cut out mufflers are illegal...but people don't respect their neighbours and don't respect the law...of course you are going to draw police attention, the public (our bosses) command us to take action. In plain English, obey the law...don't be drunk and disorderly in public, don't assault your spouse or anyone else for that matter, don't steal and don't drive it like it's stolen... 4) Be polite with everyone you meet in life. If someone bumps into you, apologize first, it startles them, laugh about to yourself later... I'm a 5'11 245lbs, fit police officer, but I'm generally polite with the public and hear, wow I didn't expect you to be nice. I tell them their expectations get in the way of keeping an open mind. I've never once, on two major police departments ever seen a polite, compliant person receive anything harsher than a suspicious look. Yes innocent people get arrested, yes tickets are handed out from time to time based on varying perceptions...what can we do about that? We already have a court system as a safety check...as Doug Llewelyn used to say on the People's Court, don't take the law into your own hands...
1) Ok we disagree, how was this guy not A POTENTIAL THREAT, people who assault police are the ones who moves slow to comply while they formulate an improvised attack, almost every time I've been assaulted it came out of a situation where some was hesitant to comply, it's recognized indicia of assaultive behaviour...why else wouldn't you immediately comply. I watched this video seven times...I really tried to see outside the context of my police brain, but I've arrested 1000 people in my career and this guy was moving slowly, much slower than the average 'ok you got me type'...he was arguing, and bracing himself...was he trying to debate with the other officer? The kick was neither very hard and certainly not battery (a US term)...there will be no injuries beyond 'trifling and transitional' and seriously, it appeared to be more like trying to get this drunken dimwit's attention. PS Do you have a strategy that we are aware of to get a drunk to comply, immediately? If you don't think immediately is important in a crowded market where having your back to his friends or giving him a moment to prepare an attack isn't important, I'll e-mail a few videos from our training films that show you officers being seriously hurt in these types of incident...like the mounties up north a few days ago who got beaten badly...
2) Awesome! All in favour, have been for years. In jurisdiction where they have it complaints against police drop significantly...some argue police behave better, police argue that when subject learns it actually was recorded, they don't risk exaggerating or worse creating false complaints. Problem is, they ARE expensive...we've asked for them but only recently did we even get a proper computer system in our cars.
One of our traffic guys started audio recording his traffic stops, and it's cleared him in 11 complaints and three people have been criminally charged with public mischief for fabricating a complaint, all three were convicted, not bad for 6 years...
3) I'm stunned at how many people in these forums are in awe of how awesome 11b is, but if the police use in a case that has dragged almost a decade, ruined careers, marriages, lives...we need a better system! Laughable. I agree that when PEOPLE break the law, people should face timely justice...justice should be the same for everyone...
I wholeheartedly agree in principal with what you've said, I think there's room in the Victoria case to hear and see all the evidence not a short video and rush off to say we have all the evidence...if I caught you going thru a red light on video, you still get to present evidence...I'll wait to see what the judge and jury of people (like yourself) say if charges are even laid.
Police image is terrible thing to repair and trust can be difficult to regain. There needs to be a fix...but these dozen or so a year cases divided by the 67,000 professional police in Canada (each officer involved in ~264 dispatched calls, not counting traffic stops which at 1 per day - very conservative estimate - equals roughly 475 public interactions per officer per year) 67,000 police X 475 interactions = 31,825,000 divided by the 24 for so serious complaints equals....uhh...my calculator can give me that percentage it's so low.
Sure officers are rude, so is the public...I'm not too worried about that...but we look at the messy use of force complaints, the criminal charges filed against police probably hit the paper once a month, maybe every two weeks...so 24 newsworthy stories per year?
My turn...
1) Always, always, always, always comply with the police, immediately. If you don't think you should be arrested, have that conversation once you've complied and been cuffed, police listen really well when you do too. I've often un-arrested people, but often it's to secure them while an investigation is conducted. I once broke up a fight, cuffed one guy, spoke to witnesses, then took the cuffs of the guy #1 and put them on guy #2. Best part is, people remained calm and we got to the investigation part. If you feel you are being wronged or your rights infringed...guess what, we have a system for that, it's called the courts and the police complaints system...resisting is NEVER the answer. Not once, not ever...
2) Put cameras in cruisers. It'll protect officers.
3) Show the police some respect. Yes you'll demand it in return and I assure you'll likely get it in return. Yes generation ME is all about respect, and rights and anti-establishment...we all know cut out mufflers are illegal...but people don't respect their neighbours and don't respect the law...of course you are going to draw police attention, the public (our bosses) command us to take action. In plain English, obey the law...don't be drunk and disorderly in public, don't assault your spouse or anyone else for that matter, don't steal and don't drive it like it's stolen...
4) Be polite with everyone you meet in life. If someone bumps into you, apologize first, it startles them, laugh about to yourself later... I'm a 5'11 245lbs, fit police officer, but I'm generally polite with the public and hear, wow I didn't expect you to be nice. I tell them their expectations get in the way of keeping an open mind.
I've never once, on two major police departments ever seen a polite, compliant person receive anything harsher than a suspicious look. Yes innocent people get arrested, yes tickets are handed out from time to time based on varying perceptions...what can we do about that? We already have a court system as a safety check...as Doug Llewelyn used to say on the People's Court, don't take the law into your own hands...
Well, I agree with most of your post in principle. For starters, a note on myself. I'm not some FTP-shouting punk-teen. I'm a married man in my 30's. I also grew up in a country that didn't have a proper constitution or a set of checks and balances to keep the cops honest, so I've seen the best and the worst from law enforcement officers. A law enforcement officer has lots of power. If that power isn't constantly held in check by a proper constitution and an investigative/punitive process, the scum that slips through the cracks gets to have a free reign and the tribal mentality that's a part of human nature allows them to hide behind the blue line. Here's an example from the "old country" back in the early 90's.. They pulled over an acquaintance of mine and her boyfriend. They gave him a beating and told her that if she doesn't allow for them to gang-rape her, they'll continue beating him up. They never faced any legal consequences because the police was also instrumental in keeping political opposition to the regime in power. This wasn't an isolated incident. Experiences like that keep me very sensitive to police abuses. A combination of strong constitutional protection for every citizen and proper supervision of the law enforcement community ensure that corrupt scum that cheats his/her way into a position of trust thinks twice before abusing that trust. I have also had very positive experiences in dealing with cops who handled the situations I was involved in with great tact and creativity. Actually a great majority of cops I dealt with were at worst professional and handled the situations by the books. However, we, as a society, need to make sure that those few aberrations don't get away with soiling the image of our law enforcement community.
Well, I agree with most of your post in principle.
For starters, a note on myself. I'm not some FTP-shouting punk-teen. I'm a married man in my 30's. I also grew up in a country that didn't have a proper constitution or a set of checks and balances to keep the cops honest, so I've seen the best and the worst from law enforcement officers.
A law enforcement officer has lots of power. If that power isn't constantly held in check by a proper constitution and an investigative/punitive process, the scum that slips through the cracks gets to have a free reign and the tribal mentality that's a part of human nature allows them to hide behind the blue line. Here's an example from the "old country" back in the early 90's..
They pulled over an acquaintance of mine and her boyfriend. They gave him a beating and told her that if she doesn't allow for them to gang-rape her, they'll continue beating him up. They never faced any legal consequences because the police was also instrumental in keeping political opposition to the regime in power. This wasn't an isolated incident.
Experiences like that keep me very sensitive to police abuses. A combination of strong constitutional protection for every citizen and proper supervision of the law enforcement community ensure that corrupt scum that cheats his/her way into a position of trust thinks twice before abusing that trust.
I have also had very positive experiences in dealing with cops who handled the situations I was involved in with great tact and creativity. Actually a great majority of cops I dealt with were at worst professional and handled the situations by the books. However, we, as a society, need to make sure that those few aberrations don't get away with soiling the image of our law enforcement community.
What kind of a man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.
Another note on the incident on that video. I had some martial arts training and have been attacked by as many as 7 guys (locals doing some fanny-smackin').. If I were to offer physical resistance, I'd never get on the ground, especially in a multiple attacker situation. Staying on my feet would allow me to strike, grapple or run. Therefore, if I were going to put the cops' lives in danger, chances are I would have done everything in my power to stay on my feet.
Another note on the incident on that video. I had some martial arts training and have been attacked by as many as 7 guys (locals doing some fanny-smackin').. If I were to offer physical resistance, I'd never get on the ground, especially in a multiple attacker situation. Staying on my feet would allow me to strike, grapple or run. Therefore, if I were going to put the cops' lives in danger, chances are I would have done everything in my power to stay on my feet.
What kind of a man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.
I find that the older (more experienced) the officer is, the more professional they become. Experience teaches and humbles. Especially in that profession. I work in a building that also holds a for-profit "college" offering law and security (police foundations) programs, and I pray to every deity ever imagined into existence that the majority of these fools do not get onto any police force. They are uncouth and manifest a "look down your nose" attitude toward those they perceive as "civies" they ride the elevators with, they are incorrigibly rude to the owners/workers of the little cafe we have that services the entire office building. I have become good friends with the couple who owns the cafe over the years I've been working here and I either hear or see all of the incidents and have even piped up to tell more than one of these 20-something aged students to knock it off. They display absolutely DISGUSTING social behavior, and it's clear that these people are turned on by the power and authority given to such a position and would, by nature, abuse that. If they do get on the force, I hope that Alymer kicks the living *EDIT* out of that attitude before they are put on the road and, just for good measure, the senior officers in their platoon reinforce it.
I find that the older (more experienced) the officer is, the more professional they become. Experience teaches and humbles. Especially in that profession.
I work in a building that also holds a for-profit "college" offering law and security (police foundations) programs, and I pray to every deity ever imagined into existence that the majority of these fools do not get onto any police force. They are uncouth and manifest a "look down your nose" attitude toward those they perceive as "civies" they ride the elevators with, they are incorrigibly rude to the owners/workers of the little cafe we have that services the entire office building. I have become good friends with the couple who owns the cafe over the years I've been working here and I either hear or see all of the incidents and have even piped up to tell more than one of these 20-something aged students to knock it off. They display absolutely DISGUSTING social behavior, and it's clear that these people are turned on by the power and authority given to such a position and would, by nature, abuse that.
If they do get on the force, I hope that Alymer kicks the living *EDIT* out of that attitude before they are put on the road and, just for good measure, the senior officers in their platoon reinforce it.
Fyrestorm, I don't agree with most of your post. I am just going to break it down a bit.... Wrong, look again. He was across the street. The man aproaching the police does not get arrested or kicked. Good observation, your probably right No, he imediately "gets on the ground" exactly as ordered. True. But this is almost natural to do, although meaningless in the situation. No, they did not have to. Since he sat down imediately when asked the first time, further instruction to lay down with hands behind back may have been sufficient, he was never given a chance. I dont think so. That kick made quite a thud. The repeated kneeing after was quite weak though. I agree. Just take a look after the first time the cop tells him to get down on the ground... sits down right away. I dont think physical violence should have been used so quickly here. (judging soely by the brief video, We don't know what already took place) Physical violence or taser should only be used if nessicary, like if a suspect is combative. This one did not seem to be towards the officers, obviously there had been a fight, but it was over at this point. Also 10 seconds in that same cop is seen kicking another suspect already being subdued by a few officers. Even if a suspect is slow to respond to comands to put hands behind back, three officers are enough to make that happen forcefully without kicking or punching. This is what I believe the other officers were attempting to do. Only one (in the bright jacket) was at fault here IMO. I believe he needs some extra training. At the very least this cop lacked self restraint and profesionalism. If you believe this cop was acting professionaly then you need to give your head a shake.
Fyrestorm, I don't agree with most of your post. I am just going to break it down a bit....
FyreStorm wrote:
The fella who gets booted approaches the police in the middle of an arrest
Wrong, look again. He was across the street. The man aproaching the police does not get arrested or kicked.
FyreStorm wrote:
his shirt is already torn, indicating perhaps he's already been in one scuffle,
Good observation, your probably right
FyreStorm wrote:
the officers order him to the ground, but have to push him down cause he goes 1/2 way
No, he imediately "gets on the ground" exactly as ordered.
FyreStorm wrote:
and then stops to start his trial on the spot,
True. But this is almost natural to do, although meaningless in the situation.
FyreStorm wrote:
they have to wrestle him to the ground and manage t get him on all fours
No, they did not have to. Since he sat down imediately when asked the first time, further instruction to lay down with hands behind back may have been sufficient, he was never given a chance.
FyreStorm wrote:
which we could argue wasn't much of a kick other than to get dummy's attention
I dont think so. That kick made quite a thud. The repeated kneeing after was quite weak though.
FyreStorm wrote:
Arguing happens later...you been ordered to the ground, "Yes sir!" No problems!
I agree. Just take a look after the first time the cop tells him to get down on the ground... sits down right away.
I dont think physical violence should have been used so quickly here. (judging soely by the brief video, We don't know what already took place) Physical violence or taser should only be used if nessicary, like if a suspect is combative. This one did not seem to be towards the officers, obviously there had been a fight, but it was over at this point. Also 10 seconds in that same cop is seen kicking another suspect already being subdued by a few officers. Even if a suspect is slow to respond to comands to put hands behind back, three officers are enough to make that happen forcefully without kicking or punching. This is what I believe the other officers were attempting to do. Only one (in the bright jacket) was at fault here IMO. I believe he needs some extra training.
At the very least this cop lacked self restraint and profesionalism. If you believe this cop was acting professionaly then you need to give your head a shake.
Dialogue is good. 1) This guy WAS moving toward police, they both were...and seeing as police esentially walked past the first guy, something else (out of camera frame) clearly drew their attention...again I await ALL the facts... However this guy's shirt was torn, from a previous assault, had he already been described to police as violent or assaultive? Again we don't know...Had he throttled someone already? Hence the need for police to respond to this area...would you be more inclined to give somebody who had just inflicted violence on someone else more or less leeway when ti came to using force when arresting him. 2) I've arrested 1000 people in my career...this guy was taking his sweet A** time getting to the ground...people who assault police, stall and hesitate as they build courage and a plan...psychologists and police trainers around the world tell officers if people start stalling on you when you give clear commands, get ready...a study of officers killed on duty almost always reveals the bad moving deliberately and slowly prior to attack. I tried to find the video of the 6'5, 270 lbs Texas trooper who faced this EXACT scenario, his dash cam recorded the 5'9 medium build guy surprise him, get him off balance and kill him with his own gun. This was a season officer who died because action beats reaction... 3) While it may be natural to want to argue your case in the middle of an arrest, it never works and it could be part of a distraction...I've seen it happen... 4) From the time a decision to arrest is made, every second counts, people don't resist / assault police until this process starts, it's very important that the arrest occur quickly, cuffs on, problem over...with a large liquor filled crowd in the area, all the more reason this officer likely wanted this guy under control in a second...during a similar incident in our city a few years back, the guy goes down, officer struggle to get him cuffed, both officers suffered serious injuries when the crowd started lobbing beer bottle at them, one officer had to have surgery to save an eye...all cause they dilly dallied with bad guy...mob mentality is no place you EVER want to be. Alcohol is liquid courage...not the real deal... 5) A sound in no indicia of the strength of the blow...I good bitch slap can't stop a whole room of people...but despite making a shocking sound, isn't taking anybody out of the fight...similarly in training, we kick each other around (and no we don't complain about it) and some really loud wallops are just flat surface contact, whereas some bone busting blows make little or no noise... 6) I agree there was little need for violence...by those in attendace BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED...nobody's upset aboput the 8 people fighting and causing police to be there...aren't they the ultimate coause of this incident? I'm defending this guy, also not nailing him to a cross either...I like facts, so do juries...not saying this was right or wrong, merely that it's not clear cut or one sided as someonew who hasn't worked in law enforcement might make it out to be... No matter what you might think, there are far more assaults against police then there are the other way...they get a slap on the wrist...
Dialogue is good.
1) This guy WAS moving toward police, they both were...and seeing as police esentially walked past the first guy, something else (out of camera frame) clearly drew their attention...again I await ALL the facts...
However this guy's shirt was torn, from a previous assault, had he already been described to police as violent or assaultive? Again we don't know...Had he throttled someone already? Hence the need for police to respond to this area...would you be more inclined to give somebody who had just inflicted violence on someone else more or less leeway when ti came to using force when arresting him.
2) I've arrested 1000 people in my career...this guy was taking his sweet A** time getting to the ground...people who assault police, stall and hesitate as they build courage and a plan...psychologists and police trainers around the world tell officers if people start stalling on you when you give clear commands, get ready...a study of officers killed on duty almost always reveals the bad moving deliberately and slowly prior to attack. I tried to find the video of the 6'5, 270 lbs Texas trooper who faced this EXACT scenario, his dash cam recorded the 5'9 medium build guy surprise him, get him off balance and kill him with his own gun. This was a season officer who died because action beats reaction...
3) While it may be natural to want to argue your case in the middle of an arrest, it never works and it could be part of a distraction...I've seen it happen...
4) From the time a decision to arrest is made, every second counts, people don't resist / assault police until this process starts, it's very important that the arrest occur quickly, cuffs on, problem over...with a large liquor filled crowd in the area, all the more reason this officer likely wanted this guy under control in a second...during a similar incident in our city a few years back, the guy goes down, officer struggle to get him cuffed, both officers suffered serious injuries when the crowd started lobbing beer bottle at them, one officer had to have surgery to save an eye...all cause they dilly dallied with bad guy...mob mentality is no place you EVER want to be.
Alcohol is liquid courage...not the real deal...
5) A sound in no indicia of the strength of the blow...I good bitch slap can't stop a whole room of people...but despite making a shocking sound, isn't taking anybody out of the fight...similarly in training, we kick each other around (and no we don't complain about it) and some really loud wallops are just flat surface contact, whereas some bone busting blows make little or no noise...
6) I agree there was little need for violence...by those in attendace BEFORE THE POLICE ARRIVED...nobody's upset aboput the 8 people fighting and causing police to be there...aren't they the ultimate coause of this incident?
I'm defending this guy, also not nailing him to a cross either...I like facts, so do juries...not saying this was right or wrong, merely that it's not clear cut or one sided as someonew who hasn't worked in law enforcement might make it out to be...
No matter what you might think, there are far more assaults against police then there are the other way...they get a slap on the wrist...
I will be going to trial for my red light camera offence.
I'll be arguing two issues, centered on the fact that there are two essential elements of 144(18) - a) a vehicle approaching the intersection shall stop; and b) the vehicle shall not proceed until green. Both essential elements must be contravened beyond a reasonable doubt to be an offence.
1) My ticket says I (being the owner) am "charged…
I know that the RIDE program has been covered extensively in these great forums, but I have a question about the stop itself:
I recently was stopped for a RIDE Program and the officer asked me to roll the window down all of the way (I had it at half and could easily communicate with them). I told them that I could hear them just fine and they insisted I roll it down all of the way. Again I told…
Not sure the right place for this so if it needs to be moved please do so.
I was stopped today for 15 over the speed limit, I gave all the documents to the officer and he said he could not accept a photocopy of my ownership only the original I had a photo copy front and back and I had my plate sticker number with it.
he gave me a ticket for HWY ACT Section 7(5)(a) he said only the original would…
Hey! I'm from Sudbury Ontario. Hope that general talk is fine for this subject
I am very serious about looking for exact ruling about underfacing lighting
Section 14 clearly states:
Red and blue lights to the front restricted
(14.1) In addition to the lighting requirements in this Part, a police department vehicle may carry lamps that cast red and blue lights, but no other motor vehicle shall carry…
i was driving my dad's car when i was caught by the red light camera in Brampton. My dad would've to take time off work to go ask for a trial and then go to one.
Can i represent him? if yes, what do i need to do?
I was pulled over and told I went through a red light during a right turn. I learned through a friend who is a police constable that the one who pulled me over is new to the job (under a year, and possibly even the first month or two of real duty).
I was given a ticket for $180. I have some questions:
(1) Is this offense automatically associated with 3 demerit points? I see no mention of them on…
I got a ticket for 'Disobey Stop Sign' in November of 2013 (in York Region), requested disclosure and went to court in August of 2014. At my first appearance, I did not plea but requested an ajournment to to consult legal advice. The JOP set the next appearance in September.
I contacted a paralegal about my options. He told me that on my next appearance, if the police officer did not show, the…
I had a trial and found guilty, but the trial seemed to go wrong since the beginning.
The JP asked me if i am intending to take the stand- I said NO.
I asked how to submit my evidence-documents and photos.
JP said-i have to take the stand if i want to submit evidence.(Now i am finding this is wrong-i could introduce my evidence during cross examination and my defense would be much stronger)
Ottawa, Canada (AHN) - Beginning Tuesday, or April Fool's Day 2008, fines on Quebec drivers caught overspeeding will be doubled. It is not only the money penalty that will go up, but also demerit points.
The new law, Bill 42, is similar to Ontario's street racing rule. It stipulates fines for motorists who drive at over 40 km/h at under 60 km/h zones, speed at 50 km/h at 60 to 90 km/h areas and…
Make big trucks go slower and the roads will become safer.
Obvious, isn't it? It's also obvious when you look out the window that the world is flat.
Last Monday, truckers in Ontario tried to mount a convoy to Queen's Park to show their opposition to electronic speed limiters. These devices, electronic chips in trucks' engine management systems, restrict speeds…
I was out on a four lane highway around Orangeville Ontario and I noticed a school bus coming south (I was going north). I kept my eyes on the bus in case it was going to stop. As I approached it, it was slowing down a little, but no lights, and especially no arm with the STOP sign. As I was just about to pass the bus, I still did not see the lights, nor did I see the STOP sign.
Hey everyone first off I'd like to say great website, I have been reading and it is very useful
I'm posting today as I'd like to get some feedback on my situation and have a couple of questions. Please excuse the vagueness in some areas - I don't want my case to be identifiable given the small town.
So I was driving up north and was pulled over by an OPP SUV for doing 31 over. Cop drove past me,…
Driving on a 80km/hr highway the car ahead hits the brakes and slows to 55, l slow down right behind him no reason to slow down traffic was moving between 80 and 90. I notice the driver is on the phone and looking through papers on the passenger seat. He begins to start to go a opp officer drives by doing 80 plus in oncoming lane turns around and says l was following to close. Told him what was…
My son was making a right turn at the intersection he had a green so slowed down looked and proceeded into the turn. It was pouring rain and the was a big pool of water as he got arround the curb. He tried to keep the car going sharp right however it slid into the car making a left turn. the lane he was turning into is very narrow and at a very busy corner. He paniced and left the scene only…
I had an collision the other day. I was turing left and ran into a car going straight in the opposite direction. The insurance company has already determined that I'm at fault, since I made the left turn. But I'm wondering whether I should go on trail and at least I might get rid of the ticket. The ticket was under 142(1)
I was told that if I go on court, both the guy I hit and the officer who…
question for a friend of mine.....says she got a 3 day suspension for giving a A on a roadside. Thing is she wasnt driving. She is a g2 driver and the car was parked in a parking lot, she just ran out to get something and turned the car on. Can a 3 day be issued if you arent driving on a highway - (I've read for impaired it doesnt matter, but 3 day isnt criminal)? And is there any way to…
I can't find the category for this post so I'm posting it here.
Two questions...
1. Are golf carts considered a 'vehicle' under the Highway traffic act? I know carts can't drive across roads or on roads but if you try to bring one from the USA into Canada they are considered a 'vehicle'.
2. If you are on private property are you allowed to carry 'opened' alcohol in your golf cart? I know golf…
I got pulled over (along with about 10 other cars) for going through a road closed sign. I had just pulled out of a parking lot pretty much right beside the road closed sign, and with about 4 cars behind me there wasn't much I could do but go through, so I think I have a good chance of fighting it. However, on my ticket under the Signature of issuing Provincial Offences Officer, it's left…
I was driving westbound on Hwy. 8 earlier this month in North Dumfries Township, approaching the Cambridge city limits. The weather was clear and the roads were dry. I noticed a vehicle on the shoulder on my side of the road, pointing towards me. This didn't concern me right away, as it is a rural area and I sometimes see vehicles doing mail delivery. The vehicle then started accelerating and…
I was pulled over yesterday in a community safety zone and told I was doing 84 in a 50. When i passed the officer I looked at my odometer and I was only doing 64. I was given a summons on the spot to appear in court at the end of June. Do I have any chance in this if it comes down to his word over mine. I was in the car alone but have travelled these same roads every day, twice a day for 6 years…
who is at fault when :a) a passenger opens door and jumps out of vehicle onto the road with traffic. b) he gets hit by a car travelling in the adjoining lane. c) traffic lights were green. d) pedestrian crossing was further up and indicated "no crossing" light e) the vehicle that he exited from leaves the scene as soon as accident occurred. f) no charges have been laid after police filed report…
