Our website is made possible by displaying online advertisements to our visitors.
Please consider supporting us by disabling your ad blocker.

Ontario Highway Traffic Act

Discuss the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.


Post Your Traffic Ticket, and Get Help!


The Ontario Traffic Ticket Forum!


All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 
Check It Out
No unread posts New Set Fines Starting Sept 1st, 2015! Read and Learn Here.
  Print view

How do you obtain information about speed trap statistics?
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:11 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:34 pm
Posts: 22
By that I mean, I was popped for speeding - Air Patrol - last August outside of Cobourg. They were obviously dragnetting as they were pulling over several cars one after the other - there was one stopped just up the road from me and another cop was going after another as I was pulling over. In fact, I never received a ticket so fast in my life. Whole thing took less than 2 minutes. The OPP officer asked me if I knew how fast I was going, I said no, he said 149, I expressed shock and denial - I certainly wasn't - he asked for license/registration, came back a minute later with the ticket then zoomed off to pull over someone else. It's very obvious they were going for volume here and while I *may* have been over the speed limit there's no way in hell I was going that fast. So I'm think the Air Patrol, was just picking people far too fast to make a correct assessment. I'm going to be asking for a stay - if the officer and pilot/spotters do show up - and if it isn't granted I'll get it held over to prepare for a trial. So how do I go about obtaining information about how many cars they pulled over that day and in that time period? FOIA? Or just call the OPP and ask for the records of that day? Any help would be appreciated. Cheers.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 2:26 pm 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:08 pm
Posts: 550
topic4448.html#p25821 some more information on aircraft enforcement.

Here's a Google Maps measurement of the white painted lines they use for air/speed enforcement around Cobourg. It was measured to be ~500m: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... WnphiuRJsg

If my math is right 149km/h over 500m takes 12s.

Aircraft uses stop watch; radios patrol car; aircraft verifies patrol car stops the correct vehicle and moves on to the next vehicle. IMO it seems like an efficient use of the aircraft and the officer's time.

You yourself stated that you had no idea how fast you were going. Keep in mind they're calculating an average speed and they calculate it from when the front of your vehicle enters the zone to the rear of your vehicle leaves the zone, and this favours you. So theoretically you were going even faster, possibly stunt tow territory.

The police department will not give you that information, you'll have to make a very expensive FOI request. There will be privacy issues to giving out details of other drivers who were stopped and how fast they were going. Then there's the all important question of how the information will actually be relevant.

I don't think you have a leg to stand on here using statistics, you should consider a different approach.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:08 pm 
Offline
High Authority

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
Agree with iFly55, you'd have to proceed by way of FOI request. I'm not sure though how that expensive request would translate into a stay of proceedings Even if you're somehow able to enter into evidence the number of motorists stopped that day, the Justice of the Peace would not likely find it relevant. As long as the spotter can testify he accurately measured your speed and the ticketing officer stopped the correct vehicle, the number of stops is irrelevant.

If they were stopping lots of vehicles your best bet is to review disclosure and hope someone made quick and sloppy notes.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:59 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:34 pm
Posts: 22
Oh it's relevant alright. There was a lot of traffic on the highway that day. He could have easily confused another car for mine. In fact, in most of my research on this that's how most of these tickets are beaten. The devil is in the details. And I don't see why it would be such a problem obtaining general information. I'm not asking for personal details about other drivers, just how many cars were stopped that day and how many around the time they stopped me. It's hardly classified information. I've been accused of a crime by the state, I require this as evidence - that determination is my right as a citizen. And FOI requests cost $5. Eh, thanks anyway, I'll ask my lawyer how to proceed with this and let you know how it works out.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 11:02 am 
Offline
High Authority

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
Halsy wrote:
And FOI requests cost $5.


That would be initial filing fee. The final cost is dependent on time taken, number of records required, number of people involved and copying fees, etc. They should give you an estimate of the final cost before proceeding with it, but I'd be surprised if it's under $100.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:10 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:34 pm
Posts: 22
So I spoke to the OPP and they'll happily hand that information to the Crown but they won't me. I explained that this is exculpatory evidence. Doesn't matter. Typical. Where is the effing justice in any of this?


Top
 Profile  
 
How long before your court date do you have to request...
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:12 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:34 pm
Posts: 22
an adjournment? When I asked the judge she said it has to be at least 3 days prior to the court date. That seems like awful short notice but she is the judge. Does anyone know different for a fact?


Top
 Profile  
 
What happens if your 11B is rejected?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:22 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:34 pm
Posts: 22
Say you introduce the motion and the judge rejects it? Can you ask for an adjournment at that time for an appeal to have another judge rule on the motion as a point of law?


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: What happens if your 11B is rejected?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:47 am 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 8:08 pm
Posts: 550
You should keep all your questions to one thread: topic2871.html

Once your 11b fails, you will be arraigned and go straight to trial if you plead not-guilty; you'll have to appeal after the trial is over. At which point things will get very expensive with transcripts because it will include your motion + trial.

You should be prepared for trial.

You can also provide us a timeline of your case, and we could help tell you whether you're a good candidate for an 11b stay.

Halsy wrote:
an adjournment? When I asked the judge she said it has to be at least 3 days prior to the court date. That seems like awful short notice but she is the judge. Does anyone know different for a fact?
Why are you requesting an adjournment?


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:00 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:26 pm
Posts: 2881
Location: Toronto
Halsy: I merged this in to one topic so we can find everything related to your discussion in one place. Easier to keep track of things that way.

_________________
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:05 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 22, 2008 7:21 am
Posts: 2933
Location: In YOUR rearview mirror!
Halsy wrote:
There was a lot of traffic on the highway that day. He could have easily confused another car for mine.

It is very easy to view vehicles speeding, picture an assembly line and all of a sudden a box on that assembly line just easily moves past the other boxes. It is easy to watch the one vehicle and communicate to ground units to stop the correct vehicle. Even if the target vehicle suddenly brakes and crosses lanes, can see the movement easily from above.

_________________
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:37 am 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2011 12:34 pm
Posts: 22
It was 6 months for the ticket to come to trial. Now seeing the Andrande case where the court ruled that 8-10 months was reasonable for Toronto then it follows it should be considerably less for a smaller venue. Northumbland County is about 1/100th the size of Toronto so a trial date should be that much faster - like 8-10 days from filing if you factor it. This is why I need the traffic info from that day because when I asked the cops their contention was that there was zero traffic on the road - Wednesday afternoon, no traffic on the 401? Yeah. Sure. - when there was actually a lot of traffic on the road. So the length of delay has already shown its effects here.

It's also easy to make mistakes too. Sitting in a cramped cockpit, buffeted by turbulence, sun in your eyes, etc. In his notes he confuses the colour of the car and loses sight of it under a bridge. And reflex time can be off anywhere from .5 seconds to a full 1.5 seconds off - funny thing was a cop had argued that point on another case while I was waiting my turn and the judge accepted it, so now I can use it. It's also a flawed system in that the perception of angular velocity if faster than that of actual linear velocity. Constancy of vision is a defect we all share. It's why were rely on tools for measuring and not just guesstimating. And lastly the stopwatch hadn't been calibrated in several weeks. So there's that.

I never claimed I wasn't speeding, simply that I wasn't going that fast and I can't see how they can reasonably prove it. Oh yeah, and the other cop who was supposed to have witnessed this was sitting on the other side of the hill. So unless he has Xray vision I don't see how he could have seen anything. Even their notes conflict on that point, where the cop in the plane says he guided the cruiser in behind me, and the cop in the cruiser said he flagged me over from beside him - which is what happened.

This is a great site for this sort of information.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... er6-1.html


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: How do you obtain information about speed trap statistic
PostPosted: Sun Apr 26, 2015 2:37 pm 
Offline
VIP

Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
Posts: 813
Any update ?

_________________
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 13 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Related topics
 Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. speed trap (19 km/h over)

jones416

8

661

Mon Jan 09, 2017 11:09 pm

Decatur View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Signalling for speed trap

gilbert1111

12

1108

Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:29 am

gilbert1111 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Speed Trap - 79 in 50 zone

zerokarma

8

1970

Wed Oct 08, 2014 11:33 am

bend View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. New Speed Trap Regulations

Cynthia

9

2318

Wed Jan 11, 2012 4:35 pm

G35Dalf View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. 2 Officer Speed Trap

Milkman38

9

698

Wed Jul 01, 2015 1:51 pm

Stanton View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Any rules for speed trap locations?

proper_joe

5

1078

Tue Sep 23, 2008 9:06 pm

Reflections View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. court date for a speed trap?

coolcars

7

851

Tue Dec 08, 2009 8:12 pm

Reflections View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Sneaky Speed trap in Niagra Region

BelSlySTi

1

604

Sat Oct 18, 2008 4:02 pm

Proper1 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. speeding ticket 87 in a 60, speed trap with 3 officers

jbody

2

1150

Thu May 07, 2009 5:47 am

jbody View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Hidden Police Car at Speed Trap

sean1966

2

1324

Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:56 pm

Stanton View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Beautiful speed trap in downtown Toronto

Axel

9

1119

Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:25 am

Axel View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. 2 Officer Speed Trap - Heading to Court

daniel

6

813

Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:48 am

hwybear View the latest post

 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Web Development & Search Engine Optimization
Home | Court Listings | Ontario Traffic Ticket

Copyright 2007 - 2017 © Microtekblue Inc. Web Development & Search Engine Optimization Service. We Support phpBB All Rights Reserved.