How do you obtain information about speed trap statistics?

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Halsy
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How do you obtain information about speed trap statistics?

by: Halsy on
Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:11 pm

By that I mean, I was popped for speeding - Air Patrol - last August outside of Cobourg. They were obviously dragnetting as they were pulling over several cars one after the other - there was one stopped just up the road from me and another cop was going after another as I was pulling over. In fact, I never received a ticket so fast in my life. Whole thing took less than 2 minutes. The OPP officer asked me if I knew how fast I was going, I said no, he said 149, I expressed shock and denial - I certainly wasn't - he asked for license/registration, came back a minute later with the ticket then zoomed off to pull over someone else. It's very obvious they were going for volume here and while I *may* have been over the speed limit there's no way in hell I was going that fast. So I'm think the Air Patrol, was just picking people far too fast to make a correct assessment. I'm going to be asking for a stay - if the officer and pilot/spotters do show up - and if it isn't granted I'll get it held over to prepare for a trial. So how do I go about obtaining information about how many cars they pulled over that day and in that time period? FOIA? Or just call the OPP and ask for the records of that day? Any help would be appreciated. Cheers.


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by: iFly55 on
Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:26 pm

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com ... tml#p25821 some more information on aircraft enforcement.

Here's a Google Maps measurement of the white painted lines they use for air/speed enforcement around Cobourg. It was measured to be ~500m: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid= ... WnphiuRJsg

If my math is right 149km/h over 500m takes 12s.

Aircraft uses stop watch; radios patrol car; aircraft verifies patrol car stops the correct vehicle and moves on to the next vehicle. IMO it seems like an efficient use of the aircraft and the officer's time.

You yourself stated that you had no idea how fast you were going. Keep in mind they're calculating an average speed and they calculate it from when the front of your vehicle enters the zone to the rear of your vehicle leaves the zone, and this favours you. So theoretically you were going even faster, possibly stunt tow territory.

The police department will not give you that information, you'll have to make a very expensive FOI request. There will be privacy issues to giving out details of other drivers who were stopped and how fast they were going. Then there's the all important question of how the information will actually be relevant.

I don't think you have a leg to stand on here using statistics, you should consider a different approach.


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by: Stanton on
Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:08 pm

Agree with iFly55, you'd have to proceed by way of FOI request. I'm not sure though how that expensive request would translate into a stay of proceedings Even if you're somehow able to enter into evidence the number of motorists stopped that day, the Justice of the Peace would not likely find it relevant. As long as the spotter can testify he accurately measured your speed and the ticketing officer stopped the correct vehicle, the number of stops is irrelevant.

If they were stopping lots of vehicles your best bet is to review disclosure and hope someone made quick and sloppy notes.


Halsy
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by: Halsy on
Sat Feb 21, 2015 1:59 am

Oh it's relevant alright. There was a lot of traffic on the highway that day. He could have easily confused another car for mine. In fact, in most of my research on this that's how most of these tickets are beaten. The devil is in the details. And I don't see why it would be such a problem obtaining general information. I'm not asking for personal details about other drivers, just how many cars were stopped that day and how many around the time they stopped me. It's hardly classified information. I've been accused of a crime by the state, I require this as evidence - that determination is my right as a citizen. And FOI requests cost $5. Eh, thanks anyway, I'll ask my lawyer how to proceed with this and let you know how it works out.


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by: Stanton on
Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:02 am

Halsy wrote:And FOI requests cost $5.
That would be initial filing fee. The final cost is dependent on time taken, number of records required, number of people involved and copying fees, etc. They should give you an estimate of the final cost before proceeding with it, but I'd be surprised if it's under $100.






Halsy
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by: Halsy on
Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:22 am

Say you introduce the motion and the judge rejects it? Can you ask for an adjournment at that time for an appeal to have another judge rule on the motion as a point of law?


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by: iFly55 on
Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:47 am

You should keep all your questions to one thread: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic2871.html

Once your 11b fails, you will be arraigned and go straight to trial if you plead not-guilty; you'll have to appeal after the trial is over. At which point things will get very expensive with transcripts because it will include your motion + trial.

You should be prepared for trial.

You can also provide us a timeline of your case, and we could help tell you whether you're a good candidate for an 11b stay.
Halsy wrote:an adjournment? When I asked the judge she said it has to be at least 3 days prior to the court date. That seems like awful short notice but she is the judge. Does anyone know different for a fact?
Why are you requesting an adjournment?


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by: Radar Identified on
Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:00 pm

Halsy: I merged this in to one topic so we can find everything related to your discussion in one place. Easier to keep track of things that way.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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by: hwybear on
Mon Mar 23, 2015 11:05 am

Halsy wrote:There was a lot of traffic on the highway that day. He could have easily confused another car for mine.
It is very easy to view vehicles speeding, picture an assembly line and all of a sudden a box on that assembly line just easily moves past the other boxes. It is easy to watch the one vehicle and communicate to ground units to stop the correct vehicle. Even if the target vehicle suddenly brakes and crosses lanes, can see the movement easily from above.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca


Halsy
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by: Halsy on
Tue Mar 24, 2015 11:37 am

It was 6 months for the ticket to come to trial. Now seeing the Andrande case where the court ruled that 8-10 months was reasonable for Toronto then it follows it should be considerably less for a smaller venue. Northumbland County is about 1/100th the size of Toronto so a trial date should be that much faster - like 8-10 days from filing if you factor it. This is why I need the traffic info from that day because when I asked the cops their contention was that there was zero traffic on the road - Wednesday afternoon, no traffic on the 401? Yeah. Sure. - when there was actually a lot of traffic on the road. So the length of delay has already shown its effects here.

It's also easy to make mistakes too. Sitting in a cramped cockpit, buffeted by turbulence, sun in your eyes, etc. In his notes he confuses the colour of the car and loses sight of it under a bridge. And reflex time can be off anywhere from .5 seconds to a full 1.5 seconds off - funny thing was a cop had argued that point on another case while I was waiting my turn and the judge accepted it, so now I can use it. It's also a flawed system in that the perception of angular velocity if faster than that of actual linear velocity. Constancy of vision is a defect we all share. It's why were rely on tools for measuring and not just guesstimating. And lastly the stopwatch hadn't been calibrated in several weeks. So there's that.

I never claimed I wasn't speeding, simply that I wasn't going that fast and I can't see how they can reasonably prove it. Oh yeah, and the other cop who was supposed to have witnessed this was sitting on the other side of the hill. So unless he has Xray vision I don't see how he could have seen anything. Even their notes conflict on that point, where the cop in the plane says he guided the cruiser in behind me, and the cop in the cruiser said he flagged me over from beside him - which is what happened.

This is a great site for this sort of information.

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... er6-1.html




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