Reduced 119 Kmh In A Posted 80 Kmh, Construction Zone. Disclosure Included

firsttimeuser111
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Reduced 119 Kmh In A Posted 80 Kmh, Construction Zone. Disclosure Included

by: firsttimeuser111 on

Hi,


I just received my disclosure. Can anyone please provide advice on what to do?


- Reduced 119 kmh in a posted 80 kmh, construction zone (was doing 135-19 kmh)

- No workers were present at the time of ticket, hence the fine was not doubled. However, the conviction reads "construction zone" and I'm worried that this means a major offence (vs a minor offence) to an insurance company

- This is my first ticket ever, and I have a full G

- The ticket was issued in July 2019. Court date is end of March 2020. I got the disclosures in early March. I requested for disclosure in late Dec 2019.


Disclosure

Typed Enforcement Agency Notes reads:

test speedlaser at det 745am (ticket was issued around 3:30pm)

hot sunny car 5003

400 sb just south of king vaughan bridge

observe a I2 car alone in I2, high rate 2 rdgs 135 at 139 meters

only one car ahead in I3


point lidar at defendant vehicle... could not get a reading on I3 car


alone

valid photo ont dl

passed by I2

stopped prior to on route rt shoulder


There was also a picture of a hand-written note that says:

charge (my name)

400 s3 vaughan

119/80

(ticket number)


Is there any case to be made based on the disclosure?


My plan is to show up on the court date and bank on the police officer not showing up. If he shows up and the prosecutor offers a deal, I'll take it. Even if there's no deal, I'll have to plead guilty if there's no case to be made (which doesn't look to me like there is).


Thanks a lot in advance.

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highwaystar
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by: highwaystar on

If you want to try your luck on the officer not showing up, that's about as good as you are going to get. Nowadays, the odds of an officer not showing up for their court date is about 5-10%. It all depends on how much time you want to potentially waste on your case.


Just know that you won't get ANY further reduction----you already received a VERY sweet deal. After all, you could have been charged with stunt driving, had your car towed and impounded for 7 days, plus had to pay thousands in tickets. Why would you think you can get any better of a deal? Your odds of getting any further reduction are about 0.5%!


Of course, be aware of a further risk: if you go to court and want them to parade the officer in just so you can make up your mind on how to proceed, you better be willing to pay your ticket on that day outside of court. Otherwise, if you are planning to plead guilty IN court, then many prosecutors will seek an 'amendment' on the speed BEFORE you are arraigned---so that you'll be pleading guilty to the 'amended up speed'--in your case, 135/80 (55 over!). After all, if you are going to waste everyone's time by requiring them to call in the officer, only to plead guilty----they aren't going to give you ANY breaks. Such amendments are the norm whenever you go to trial on such a case, but many don't know that such a amendment request can also be done before guilty pleas are entered.


You see, the way it works now in may areas is that while officers are scheduled for specific court dates (and usually have multiple matters on that day), the officer will not automatically come in to court right away in the morning. Instead, they are on standby until they are emailed or texted to come in to court. That way, officers aren't just sitting in court all day doing nothing. This way, the prosecutor can simply let them know when to actually come in to the courthouse when they are certain the matter is truly going to trial. Most officers can then be in court within 15-20 minutes and the prosecutor calls that case when they are ready. This avoids wasting the officer's time by having them come in to court when the person is actually just going to pleading guilty or ask for an adjournment.


So, if you don't make up your mind BEFORE court starts and they ask the officer to come in to court, they aren't going to allow you to plead guilty "as is" any longer. They WILL seek the amendment before you plead guilty. At that point, you may as well just run the trial. That's why I said, you should be prepared to pay the ticket at the court cashier that day before your matter gets called in court so that you don't have to plea inside court where the amendment can be made.


As for the case evidence, the officer used a laser device (which is VERY accurate) and got the reading within a short distance. So, unless the officer is new and doesn't testify very well, your odds are pretty bad to beat this charge.


Given the odds and the HUGE break you already received, I personally would just pay the ticket and avoid wasting more time. But, only you know how much time you are willing to invest in something with such horrible odds.

supadriva14
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by: supadriva14 on

Are you serious?? Court is a WASTE of officer's time. That's their JOB. It's not like *EDIT* do anything better anyway. As for you cannot plead guilty in court that is absolutely false as well. You can plead guilty right up until the start of your trial or choose to take a deal with the prosecutor. However if you do want to go to trial then just plead not guilty. The whole they aren't going to allow you to plead guilty phrase is a bunch of bs tbh

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by: highwaystar on

Nothing I said is incorrect. Its not a waste of the officer's time to go to court when they are actually needed. But, why should they sit in court if the defendant is going to plead guilty or seek an adjournment and they don't need to testify? Its efficient use of public resources to have them doing other things until they are actually needed inside the court.


As for pleading guilty up until the last minute, anyone can do that. But in reduced speed cases like this one, an amendment is usually sought. The way it works is that first thing in the morning, everyone who is scheduled to be in that court approaches the prosecutor and tells them why they are there--- trial, guilty plea or adjournment request (or perhaps just to be a witness). You don't get the luxury of waiting till the officer shows up to figure out what you are going to do!


So, if you say 'go to trial', the prosecutor puts in a request (usually from another officer in court or texts/emails them directly) to call said officer in to court. They will then call up your matter when they are ready to go. BEFORE you plead guilty, in discounted speed cases like this one, a "Winlow Warning" is put on the record letting everyone know that an amendment will be sought on the speed (i.e. they are going to introduce evidence that the speed was higher!). That's before the accused even pleas (i.e. arraignment). If the accused says "not guilty" then the matter simply proceeds to trial. If they say "guilty", then the prosecutor reads in the facts and seeks the amendment to the higher speed.


Its not overly complex to understand, unless you are the type of person who calls officers pigs and/or has limited knowledge of case law or court procedures, and/or wants to use their ignorance to mislead others! :roll:

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highwaystar
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by: highwaystar on

I forgot to mention----that's why its important to know before you enter the courtroom what you will be doing. If you simply say that you plan to plead guilty as soon as you meet the prosecutor in court---in most cases, the prosecutor will allow you to do so "as is"---that is, they won't seek the Winlow amendment and your case will be called quite quickly (since they generally do guilty pleas first!). They don't generally seek the amendment in that scenario since they understand you are pleading guilty in court (as oppose to paying the cheaper set fine listed on your ticket at the cashier) so as to ask for time to pay. After all, speeding fines are a fixed rate per km over and the court has no ability to reduce that fine---its simply based on the km's you are over the speed limit.


But, like I said earlier, if you say "go to trial" first thing in the morning to the prosecutor, you are forcing them to call in the officer. Not only will that delay your matter being called up (since they assume the case is for trial) but the prosecutor will almost always put the "Winlow Warning" on the record BEFORE you plead since they assume you are going to say "not guilty".


So, bottom line (and like I said earlier), if you plan to force them to bring in the officer, be prepared to go to the cashier and pay your fine BEFORE they call your matter inside court---otherwise, you will likely be facing the amendment!

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by: Observer135 on

I think highwaystar said it very well.

You received a very sweet deal, take it and run.

Based on the disclosure, you won't win this case.

The notes are well made and he has made note of when he tested his laser, had he not done that you would have a chance, but he did.

Looks like you were stopped by a seasoned officer and he was very kind to you.

As for your insurance, they consider any speeding ticket of 40 over posted speed limit a major ticket and anything less than 40 over a minor ticket.

The old way of thinking "no points means no insurance impact" is no longer valid, a ticket for 5 Km over the posted speed limits affects your rate, however, as I said, the cut off is 40 Km for major vs minor.


Cheers

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