shall I go to trial or make a deal if offered ?

gar
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Re: shall I go to trial or make a deal if offered ?

Unread post by gar on

can anyone give me some advice? also, can I highlight the paragraph that I think JP should pay attention to?


paul1913
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Unread post by paul1913 on

For sure print the entire thing. Make 3 copis on for you to refer to one for crown and one for JP. I would high light and put tabs on where the parts you want them to look at.


gar
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Unread post by gar on

paul1913 wrote:For sure print the entire thing. Make 3 copis on for you to refer to one for crown and one for JP. I would high light and put tabs on where the parts you want them to look at.
thanks a lot! may meed to kill a small forest!


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Unread post by paul1913 on

well that way you are also being transparent and fair as is expected from the crown.

For the other sections they dont use, they dont use, but at least they are there if needed.


gar
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Unread post by gar on

I recently read in CanLii two cases of similar speeding offence but completely opposite verdict.
Durham (Regional Municipality) v. Galluzo, 2011 ONCJ 367 and
Durham (Regional Municipality) v. Zhu, 2011 ONCJ 193.
In both case the officers did not include the test(s) or testing time in their notes but testified in Court that the tests were their usual practice.
while in Durham v. Zhu the JP can not take officer's usual practice as a prove beyond the reasonable doubt that the test was done and Mr. Zhu is found not guilty; the JP in Durham v. Galluzo is satisfied that the evidence provided by Officer that she does not vary from her usual practice of testing the laser unit...... is sufficient evidence to sustain a finding that she tested the Lidar...... found the unit to be in good working order and the defendent is guilty.
Before I read those two case law, I thought I had a strong case because the officer's note I got as the disclosure did not say anything about the tests. But now I am not too sure about it because it is too convenient for Crown to argue that the tests is officers USUAL PRACTICE and therefore no need to write it down each time and they can cite Durham v. Galluzo case.
Now I think I may have 50% or even less chance to win the case, I am right?


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Unread post by mudpie on

you don't need to give anything to the prosecutor. you are not required to help them out.

There is no such thing as reasonable doubt in traffic court. It's a kangaroo court where you are presumed guilty unless you can prove you are innocent. If it's your word against the officers you will lose. The only way you can win is if you have a legal argument. ie the rule of law was not followed. Therefore make sure the actual letter of the hta was followed. And then use your case law to enforce that testing is required and hammer that home. Find the highest court possible, especially supreme court rulings.

My best advice is to plea it down to a lesser charge with lower fine and fewer points. You will be offered a deal. Negotiate hard to get the lowest charge possible.

Let us know how you did.


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Unread post by mudpie on

Also do not present the galuzo case. only present cases that help you. Show her your case law when negotiating so she gives you a better deal.


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Simon Borys
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Unread post by Simon Borys on

You can use cases from CanLii if you are going to refer to them in court. You can bring just the portion that you want to refer to, but if you don't have the whole case the prosecutor may object and the JP may chose not to give effect to the point you're trying to make with the case. The reason being, when you take it out of context by only presenting a portion of the case, they can't be sure that the case actually stands for the proposition that you claim it does, which I'm sure you agree is a legitimate concern.
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gar
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Unread post by gar on

Thank you guys!
When Crown offers me a deal of 15 over before trail, this is what I am going to do:
- I would like to read the relevant parts of the officer's Memo book notes, a diary of what the officer did throughout the day in question, to see if he wrote down anything about the radar tests at the beginning and the ending of his shift.
- If he did write down the tests, I will take the deal.
- If he did not write down the tests (means he will solely relay on his memory), or the crown's offers is 16 over, go to trial to take my 50% chance, at least to make the system works for my money.

I have not read any posts that after a lengthy discussion in this forum the defendant eventually won the case. Wish I can be the one!


gar
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Unread post by gar on

I went to the court yesterday. Here is what happened.
When the Crown offered me a "no point deal", I said I would like to know if the office has any other notes relating to my case that has not been disclosed to me yet. He said not as he is aware of.
I said I could not take his offer.
Just before my trial, the JP wanted to have a recess.
I took this chance to ask the Crown to allow me to verify some information with the officer. He said OK but no to challenge the office.
I asked the officer for the question of the additional notes.
The office said yes and showed me the memo book. The radar was tested at the begging and the ending of the shift, tests times and working OK are noted down.
I asked the officer if the radar manual (tests procedure only) disclosed to me is for the same type of radar that he used to clock my speed.
He had a close look and said no, not the same type.
I went back to the Crown and said I wanted to have the additional notes and the correct radar manual test procedure.
He said yes you have the right to have those and he asked the office to get a copy of the addition notes for me and the right radar test procedure.
He asked me if I wanted to have a trial today he might be able to get these documents to me now, or I could ask for a late trial date to prepare myself with the new information.
I said I need some time to prepare.
Then the Crown found out that the correct radar manual was actually not available at the time.
The JP returned.
the Crown said to the JP that the defendant needs some additional notes and the radar information was provided wrong and therefore the defendant requests to adjourn.
JP agreed.
Afterwards someone told me that I should not ask those questions prior to the trial. I should just go ahead with the trial and challenge the incomplete disclosure of the officer note and the wrong radar manual in front of the JP and I might have won the case.
Yes, may be I made a mistake. What shall I do now?


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Unread post by Radar Identified on

I don't agree with what you were told. If you went to trial knowing that you had improper or incomplete disclosure, the Prosecutor would probably argue that's your problem, and that you should have taken care of it before trial.

My question: How long has it been since the date of the offence?
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gar
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Unread post by gar on

Radar Identified wrote:I don't agree with what you were told. If you went to trial knowing that you had improper or incomplete disclosure, the Prosecutor would probably argue that's your problem, and that you should have taken care of it before trial.

My question: How long has it been since the date of the offence?
Thanks for that.
But do I have an argument that how did I know the office had additional notes which had not been disclosed to me?
How should I know the office's disclosed notes was incomplete ? I did not have to ask the officer to clarity it prior to trial, right? I think the same theory may apply to the wrong radar information, right?

any idea?

The offence date was late Oct, 2011.


gar
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Unread post by gar on

just want to let you know that the charge was dropped by the Crown at the count today because the officer did not present. I was the first one to be called in front of JP and was told FREE TO GO. I am one of those lucky guys!






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