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Ontario Highway Traffic Act

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Red light conviction question
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 19
Hello all and GREAT forum!

I was just convicted by default for a failure to stop - red light infraction. I am planning to appeal the conviction, since set fine on ticket is $85 where it should have been $260, and therefore is irregular on it's face (cite London vs Young). My question is, am I still obligated to pay the fine, and if so, will it be refunded if I win?

Lastly, what are the odds of insurance finding out about this offence and hike up my rates because of it?


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:23 pm 
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Posts: 382
I went through the same thing last year with a fail to stop read light ticket that had an incorrect set fine on it, so I have a bit of experience with the situation you are in. When you file your appeal you will have to pay the total payable that is listed on your ticket even though it is incorrect. If you win your appeal you will receive a full refund, although it can take up to 120 days for them to send out the refund cheque. The ticket will not appear on your driving record until after your appeal has been heard and if you win your appeal it will never show up on your driving record and thus your insurance company will never hear about it. If you lose it will show up on your record and your insurance company will probably find out about it. As for whether they would hike your rates it depends on the policies of your insurance company, some will forgive the first minor infraction within a three year period some won't.


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:12 pm 
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Posts: 19
Daggx,

Thanks for the reply! I hope you'll be able to give me some guidance in my situation, it will be greatly appreciated!

Wondering, how long after your application for appeal to you have your court date?

Thanks again


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Posts: 17
daggx wrote:
I went through the same thing last year with a fail to stop read light ticket that had an incorrect set fine on it, so I have a bit of experience with the situation you are in. When you file your appeal you will have to pay the total payable that is listed on your ticket even though it is incorrect. If you win your appeal you will receive a full refund, although it can take up to 120 days for them to send out the refund cheque. The ticket will not appear on your driving record until after your appeal has been heard and if you win your appeal it will never show up on your driving record and thus your insurance company will never hear about it. If you lose it will show up on your record and your insurance company will probably find out about it. As for whether they would hike your rates it depends on the policies of your insurance company, some will forgive the first minor infraction within a three year period some won't.


I'm not entirely sure about the appealed conviction showing up on an abstract. When I access MTO records via the police database I see a conviction with an asterisk noting that the conviction is under appeal. I'm not sure what database the insurance company would access.


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:35 pm 
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Posts: 382
hatetickets wrote:
Daggx,

Thanks for the reply! I hope you'll be able to give me some guidance in my situation, it will be greatly appreciated!

Wondering, how long after your application for appeal to you have your court date?

Thanks again


No problem, I'm happy to help any way I can. I filed my appeal on the 10th of August and my court date was the 9th of January, so I waited nearly 5 months for my appeal to be heard. That was at the Old City Hall court house in Toronto, the length of time you will wait will depend on what the back log is like at the court house where your case is scheduled.


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:49 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:21 am
Posts: 382
Brian Smith wrote:
daggx wrote:
I went through the same thing last year with a fail to stop read light ticket that had an incorrect set fine on it, so I have a bit of experience with the situation you are in. When you file your appeal you will have to pay the total payable that is listed on your ticket even though it is incorrect. If you win your appeal you will receive a full refund, although it can take up to 120 days for them to send out the refund cheque. The ticket will not appear on your driving record until after your appeal has been heard and if you win your appeal it will never show up on your driving record and thus your insurance company will never hear about it. If you lose it will show up on your record and your insurance company will probably find out about it. As for whether they would hike your rates it depends on the policies of your insurance company, some will forgive the first minor infraction within a three year period some won't.


I'm not entirely sure about the appealed conviction showing up on an abstract. When I access MTO records via the police database I see a conviction with an asterisk noting that the conviction is under appeal. I'm not sure what database the insurance company would access.


I think the insurance companies only have access to the three year Statement of Driving Record that is public record and available to anyone who can pay the fee. The police database I believe shows everything that has happened on a persons licence going all the way back to the beginning when they first got their licence, so it may show things in greater detail then what is on the three year Statement of Driving Record. Although it is also possible that when I was told that it doesn't show on your record the person may have simply meant that the insurance company can't raise your rates based on something that is still before the courts even if there is a notation in the file.


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 19
Thanks daggx.

Went this morning first to Caledon to pay fine, then asked for appeal form which I filled out and submitted at the Orangeville Courthouse. Not too much involved just a bit of running from this area to the next, to the next.

The clerk called me this afternoon to tell me the court date will be mailed out to me.
Is there a chance the prosecutor will try to convince me to settle on something prior to the court date, or on the actual court date? If so, tell him/her no thanks?

Lastly , what happens on the acutal court date. I've never been to court before so I know absolutley nothing on what to expect or what to say.

Thanks for your assistance...beer's on me WHEN I win!


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 12:36 am 
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Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:21 am
Posts: 382
The prosecutor might offer a deal, but if you have a solid London v. Young case I would decline it as you are in a position to win your case outright.
At court they will open the doors probably about 15 mins before they start hearing cases, the prosecutor handling your case may approach you just to make sure you are there. When the judge enters everyone will be asked to rise, once the judge has taken his/her seat the clerk will call the name of the person involved in the first case of the day. When your name is called you will be asked to approach the podium and state your name for the record, then you will be asked to make your case. Make sure when you address the judge that you always refer to him/her as your honour as that is their proper title. At this point what will happen depends on the judge you've got. At my trial I lucked out and got a very experienced judge who was familiar with London v. Young. All he did was flip through my paperwork and ask a couple of questions of me and the prosecutor before quashing my ticket. The prosecutor in my case didn't put up a real fight, I think she realized that there really wasn't anything she could do. However don't assume it will be that easy, come prepared to educate the judge on the London v. Young case (and any other case law you want to use) and be prepared to make arguments supporting your position in case the prosecutor puts up a fight. Bring three copies of all the case law you are going to use, one for the judge, one for the prosecutor and one for you, you will be expected to have those ready to hand out if you are going to quote from them. I would go though the case law and on your copy put sticky notes next to any paragraphs you might want to quote directly from, that will make them easier to find when you are up there. I would also have good notes outlining the key arguments you want to make. I don't know if you have seen them already, but I've posted links to a couple of threads where other people outline their experiences in court, hopefully they are useful.

topic2521.html

topic1730.html


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 10:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 19
Thanks a lot daggx,

Would you happen to know the link, or how I can access a copy of the case of London v. Young?


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:14 pm 
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High Authority

Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:49 pm
Posts: 2110
Location: Ontario
CanLII (Canadian Legal Information Institute) is a great free resource with lots of case law.

Link: http://www.canlii.org/en/

And here's a link to London (City) v. Young: http://www.canlii.org/en/on/onca/doc/20 ... ca429.html


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 11:23 am 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 19
Thank you very much!


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:30 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 19
Ok, I hate asking so many questions but,

Is there a chance that they might try to 'ammend' the set fine in court? Is it not possible since this is an appeal?


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:03 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:21 am
Posts: 382
hatetickets wrote:
Ok, I hate asking so many questions but,

Is there a chance that they might try to 'ammend' the set fine in court? Is it not possible since this is an appeal?


At this stage in the process it is too late for them to amend the set fine. If they had caught the mistake before it had gone to the default docket they could have withdrawn the ticket and issued you a summons or if you had requested a regular trial they could have asked the Justice of the Peace to amend the set fine. However once the ticket went before a Justice of the Peace for a default hearing the mistake was set in stone. At that point the law only gave the Justice of the Peace two choices 1) find that the ticket was correct and regular on its face and impose the set fine or 2) find the ticket was not correct and regular on its face and quash the proceedings. All the judge at the appeal hearing can do is review the actions of the lower court to see if they made a mistake in law, which you are going to argue they did because the lower court should have noticed that your ticket was not correct and regular on its face and quashed the proceedings against you. Feel free to keep asking questions, I'm always glad to answer them if I can.


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Mon Nov 05, 2012 9:13 pm 
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Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 19
Thanks so very very much. You are truly a good person.


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Re: Red light conviction question
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 6:45 pm 
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Newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:19 pm
Posts: 19
Well,

I still have not received my court date for my appeal in the mail. Does anyone know how long it usually takes? The courthouse admin called me the same day I filed and said that the appeal application was fine and will receive a date in the mail. It's been over 3 weeks now and still no date!


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