No Signature

noah1977
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined:

No Signature

Unread post by noah1977 on

Hi Guys

Ive had the opportunity to read 'Ticket Combat' website. On a side note, to the author of the site, it is terrific and very informative.

I do have a question for all of you. I rec'd my FIRST ticket Thursday morning for entering a do not enter during specific times (believe 7-9).

Anyhow, the officer was in a rush and FORGOT to sign the ticket. He did however write his name and his police number, BUT the signature area is totally empty.

My first question is this a fatal error?

My second question is, how exactly should i go about proceeding. I was a little confused as to whether I am supposed to do NOTHING and hope the judge somehow realizes or whether I am supposed say "Prior to entering a plea Your Worship, I move that these proceedings be quashed on the grounds that the information (your ticket) bears a fatal flaw on its face."

If the 'missing signature' is considered a fatal flaw is there ANYTHING else I need to do before trial.... i.e. should I still proceed with discovery, etc.

Thanks in advance everyone


User avatar
racer
VIP
VIP
Posts: 959
Joined:
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Contact:

Unread post by racer on

No signature = no endorsement.

The ticket is invalid. Do no pay or reply to the ticket. When you are contacted, then you show them the ticket with missing signature.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

www.OHTA.ca & www.OntarioHighwayTrafficAct.com


User avatar
Squishy
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 709
Joined:
Location: Orillia
Contact:

Unread post by Squishy on

Is this a normal fill-in-the-blank ticket, or one that came from one of those handheld or mobile printers? The ones that are fully printed (no writing on the part of the officer) may not require a signature.
         Image


noah1977
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined:

Unread post by noah1977 on

Thanks guys

DEF a handwritten ticket --- So im really not supposed to do ANYTHING until I get a notice? What do I do with the notice when i get it? Call the prosecutor?

Sorry for all the questions, but i just want to make sure I handle it correctly


User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1072
Joined:
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Posting Awards

Moderator

Unread post by admin on

noah1977 wrote:Thanks guys

DEF a handwritten ticket --- So im really not supposed to do ANYTHING until I get a notice? What do I do with the notice when i get it? Call the prosecutor?

Sorry for all the questions, but i just want to make sure I handle it correctly
I would not count on this advise. I would call the court and ask them. Or contact a Paralegal.

IF a printed doesn't require a sig, I would think the hand written may not even require a sig either.


User avatar
racer
VIP
VIP
Posts: 959
Joined:
Location: Guelph, Ontario
Contact:

Unread post by racer on

Do NOT, under any circumstances, let the prosecutor know about it! This is your Ace of Trumps, and as soon as he finds out, he will have the cop write you another ticket, and the new ticket will be written to the letter.

The cop has up to 6 months to write you another ticket. Therefore you must wait out until 6 months are over to do anything. After that is when you quash the ticket completely (or, rather, have the JP quash it as incorrect).
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"

www.OHTA.ca & www.OntarioHighwayTrafficAct.com


User avatar
Squishy
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 709
Joined:
Location: Orillia
Contact:

Unread post by Squishy on

admin wrote:
noah1977 wrote:Thanks guys

DEF a handwritten ticket --- So im really not supposed to do ANYTHING until I get a notice? What do I do with the notice when i get it? Call the prosecutor?

Sorry for all the questions, but i just want to make sure I handle it correctly
I would not count on this advise. I would call the court and ask them. Or contact a Paralegal.

IF a printed doesn't require a sig, I would think the hand written may not even require a sig either.
If a missing signature is a fatal error, then the electronically generated ones are different. O. Reg. 497/94 under the Provincial Offences Act specifically allows a "code, name or number" identifying a person to count as an electronic signature (i.e., officer's name or badge number should both count as a signature) only if the document was itself electronically generated. The same O. Reg. states that an electronic document cannot be altered after the electronic signature is applied, so filling in the boxes wouldn't be allowed.
         Image


noah1977
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 3
Joined:

Unread post by noah1977 on

so to clarify:

I do nothing for six months. I DO NOT take the ticket to court, but instead wait for six months.....If I do not hear anything, I write the prosecutor to quash the ticket....?

How will i know if the officer writes me another ticket to supercede the first one?


User avatar
admin
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 1072
Joined:
Location: Ontario, Canada
Contact:

Posting Awards

Moderator

Unread post by admin on

noah1977 wrote:so to clarify:

I do nothing for six months. I DO NOT take the ticket to court, but instead wait for six months.....If I do not hear anything, I write the prosecutor to quash the ticket....?

How will i know if the officer writes me another ticket to supercede the first one?
The only place I believe that still uses electronic tickets is in Cornwall. I heard they DO require a SIG on the Electronic Ticket itself too, as there is a box for the officer to sign.

Having no sig may be a factual error. However, I would still contact a Paralegal to get the details on how to proceed with such a case.

As Racer mentioned even with this fact they can still issue you a new ticket.

From what I would think, DO NOT go and tell the Prosecutor what you know, but simply just arrange for a Trial, and on the date of the Trial tell them the ticket was never signed.

Otherwise, you might be stuck with a ticket, that is re-issued to you with a Signature.

Simply NOT responding to the ticket may be more harmful.


User avatar
Radar Identified
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 2881
Joined:
Location: Toronto

Moderator

Unread post by Radar Identified on

noah1977, racer is right in that no signature is a fatal error. If the ticket is an electronically-generated one, then looks like Squishy is right, it isn't a fatal error... but it sounds like yours wasn't electronically-generated.

I think admin gave you some solid advice right here, following your original line of thinking:
admin wrote:From what I would think, DO NOT go and tell the Prosecutor what you know, but simply just arrange for a Trial, and on the date of the Trial tell them the ticket was never signed.
This is what I'd suggest:

Send in the info to fight the ticket (trial option) as admin said. Make it look like you're working to gather all evidence against you, when you've got the "trump card" (no signature). Make a disclosure request ASAP. Do not tell the Crown ANYTHING about the missing signature. This will buy you time.

The sign required a by-law to be erected. Standard tactic here is to see if they include a certified copy of the by-law in your disclosure package. If they don't, you can file a motion for a stay in advance of the trial and it's over. If they do give you proper disclosure, you should be able to get it tossed because of a fatal error. As a last resort, you may also be able to use the bilingual defence, which ticketcombat's website also explains.


User avatar
FiReSTaRT
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 371
Joined:
Location: GTA

Unread post by FiReSTaRT on

I'd consider requesting the disclosure upon receiving the trial notice. That way the constable won't get an opportunity to review the offence notice, fix it and issue a new one immediately.
What kind of a man would put a known criminal in charge of a major branch of government? Apart from, say, the average voter.


User avatar
ticketcombat
Sr. Member
Sr. Member
Posts: 486
Joined:
Location: Toronto
Contact:

Unread post by ticketcombat on

I've got to say I don't think I've ever seen a thread as consistent as this one filled with solid advice about what to do. And no arguments! You guys are awesome! Must be Mother's Day!

Noah, thanks for the great feedback on my site. I really do appreciate it.

I just want to add a couple of technical points. The signature is required under S. 3(2) of the POA:
(2) A provincial offences officer who believes that one or more persons have committed an offence may issue, by completing and signing, a certificate of offence certifying that an offence has been committed and,

(a) an offence notice indicating the set fine for the offence;
A Part 1 charge is on a carbon copy form. Bear once asked my about whether it would be better to sign all layers or just the top copy pushing through to the bottom. My response is here. The reason I raise this is that the justice will look at the certificate of offence, not the notice of offence. The former is filed in court, the latter is handed to you and is called "the ticket". The officer could have signed the bottom copy and forgot to sign the top. I've seen lots of tickets tossed because they forgot to sign the bottom copy, so I guess it could work the other way where they forget to sign the top. I point this out because the "do nothing" strategy may not work in this case if he signed the certificate.

All the other advice is excellent: request a trial, wait for it to be scheduled (or 6 months) before requesting disclosure, make a stay application based on insufficient disclosure (no by-law), start off at trial with moving to quash the ticket based on the fatal error and use the bilingual argument if necessary.

Oh ticket, how can I kill thee? Let me count the ways...




Fight Your Ticket!


Post Reply

Return to “Failing to obey signs”