Driving Wrong Way - Possible Incorrect Charge

CrazeeGhost
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Re: Driving Wrong Way - Possible Incorrect Charge

by: CrazeeGhost on
Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:31 pm

Another couple of questions -

The city of Toronto website recommends you use THIS FORM to request disclosure. On the form it says "Please be advised that the following information (unless otherwise indicated) is required in full in order to process this request". Does this mean this is the only form they will accept or is it still acceptable if I used THIS FORM from TicketCombat.com

I will be taking pictures of the street sometime soon. Any thoughts/suggestions/pointers that may be helpful in taking convincing photos?

Also, how would you suggest I proceed if the officer (knowingly/unknowingly) inaccurately testifies that the street is a divided highway, at the trial?

Thanks again for all the help so far.


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by: jsherk on
Fri Jul 10, 2015 12:51 pm

You can use any form or letter that you want to request disclosure. There is no requirement to use anything specific.

Take some pics that include the street names in the picture. Pictures MUST be date/time stamped and they must be printed at a real place that does pics, not from your home computer. You should have three copies of each pic so you can give one to prosecutor and one to JP and keep one for yourself. Also maybe print off google maps overhead view that shows street is not divided.

If officer testifies that it is a divided highway, then you need to bring up questions about this in your cross-examination. So you ask him things like "Isn't this a one-way street?" and "So how can it be divided?" and basically anything else you can think of along those lines. Then, while still cross-examining the officer, you can tell JP you have some pictures of the road that you would like the officer to look at and then say where each on is and question officer on if he recognizes them etc. If the officer makes no mention of the road being divided then you could introduce the pictures when you are the witness stand instead of during the cross examination.
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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by: CrazeeGhost on
Fri Jul 10, 2015 1:11 pm

jsherk wrote:You can use any form or letter that you want to request disclosure. There is no requirement to use anything specific.

Take some pics that include the street names in the picture. Pictures MUST be date/time stamped and they must be printed at a real place that does pics, not from your home computer. You should have three copies of each pic so you can give one to prosecutor and one to JP and keep one for yourself. Also maybe print off google maps overhead view that shows street is not divided.

If officer testifies that it is a divided highway, then you need to bring up questions about this in your cross-examination. So you ask him things like "Isn't this a one-way street?" and "So how can it be divided?" and basically anything else you can think of along those lines. Then, while still cross-examining the officer, you can tell JP you have some pictures of the road that you would like the officer to look at and then say where each on is and question officer on if he recognizes them etc. If the officer makes no mention of the road being divided then you could introduce the pictures when you are the witness stand instead of during the cross examination.
Thanks for that jsherk!

I noticed that the sample disclosure form for does NOT include

Appearance Date
Courtroom
Time
Officer in Charge (I believe I only have the officer ID)

The form from the city website has these fields and so I'm thinking of including this information on my disclosure request (using the TicketCombat form as template) as the city form says they need all of the information requested on the form to process the request. Am i worrying too much about it or should I go ahead and include it? Any harm in doing so?






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by: daggx on
Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:39 pm

CrazeeGhost wrote: Cool thanks. Any idea on how/where I can find the officer's name? Or should I just provide the officer and division numbers on the request?
The officer's name should be on the first line at the top of your ticket.


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by: Radar Identified on
Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:11 pm

Just a heads-up on the Ticketcombat requests: Most of the items they tell you to ask for either don't apply, don't exist or you wouldn't get them at all. In this case, the only items you need to ask for are the officer's notes, and any video/audio evidence that may exist.

The reason for this is, if the Prosecutor fails to disclose the requested items (and you make a good effort to get them), the courts are more likely to toss the charge. HOWEVER, you have to be reasonable. Asking for numerous, irrelevant items (which is what Ticketcombat's list has) actually works against you, because it looks like you're on a fishing expedition. If it comes down to it, you need to provide a reason to the court for each item you request, and how it would help you make a full answer and defence to the charge. Some items are no-brainers, like the officer's notes.

In a case where I got ticketed for speeding, the initial trial date wasn't quite late enough for an 11B (stay the charge based on unreasonable delay), but the Prosecutor hadn't disclosed any of the relevant parts of the laser manual. I showed repeated efforts to obtain the information. The JP was not happy with the Prosecutor and told her to provide the disclosure, charging the delay to them. The next appearance was an 11B and the charge was stayed. I'd only asked for the officer's notes, the relevant parts of the laser manual, and any video/audio evidence that they had. The JP commented to the Prosecutor that "these are not difficult items to provide, it's not like the defendant came up with a laundry list." So, keep that in mind...
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
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by: CrazeeGhost on
Sun Jul 12, 2015 5:19 pm

Radar Identified wrote:Just a heads-up on the Ticketcombat requests: Most of the items they tell you to ask for either don't apply, don't exist or you wouldn't get them at all. In this case, the only items you need to ask for are the officer's notes, and any video/audio evidence that may exist.

The reason for this is, if the Prosecutor fails to disclose the requested items (and you make a good effort to get them), the courts are more likely to toss the charge. HOWEVER, you have to be reasonable. Asking for numerous, irrelevant items (which is what Ticketcombat's list has) actually works against you, because it looks like you're on a fishing expedition. If it comes down to it, you need to provide a reason to the court for each item you request, and how it would help you make a full answer and defence to the charge. Some items are no-brainers, like the officer's notes.

In a case where I got ticketed for speeding, the initial trial date wasn't quite late enough for an 11B (stay the charge based on unreasonable delay), but the Prosecutor hadn't disclosed any of the relevant parts of the laser manual. I showed repeated efforts to obtain the information. The JP was not happy with the Prosecutor and told her to provide the disclosure, charging the delay to them. The next appearance was an 11B and the charge was stayed. I'd only asked for the officer's notes, the relevant parts of the laser manual, and any video/audio evidence that they had. The JP commented to the Prosecutor that "these are not difficult items to provide, it's not like the defendant came up with a laundry list." So, keep that in mind...
Good point. Noted that and I think makes sense to only request the relevant disclosure. Ignorant question - what's an 11B?


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by: CrazeeGhost on
Tue Jul 14, 2015 1:51 pm

Went ahead and requested disclosure last evening. Printed a copy of the Successful transmission of FAX (TX Report).

My trial is first week of September. How long would you guys recommend that I wait before following up on the disclosure if I don't hear from them?


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by: Radar Identified on
Wed Jul 15, 2015 3:50 pm

11B is the section of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that guarantees the right to a speedy trial.

An 11B application (although that's not its formal title) is where you file a motion to stay the charge, based on the fact that it took the Prosecutor too long to get it to trial, thereby violating your rights. For minor matters like speeding, a quick trial should be easy. If the Prosecutor keeps doing things like failing to provide proper disclosure, it keeps the clock ticking... but the disclosure request has to be reasonable.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca




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by: Radar Identified on
Fri Jul 17, 2015 9:24 pm

You'll get the notes. Typed will only happen if the notes are illegible.

Audio/visual was a reasonable request. Unless I'm missing something I think your disclosure request is complete.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


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by: CrazeeGhost on
Tue Jul 28, 2015 10:49 pm

So, I've received communication from the prosecutor's office to come in and pick up the disclosure. I'm planning to go pick it up tomorrow and I had a few questions that I thought I'd ask you guys for your input on -

1. Who would I typically see for obtaining the disclosure? The Prosecutor or an office clerk?
2. Would they be able to answer any questions I may have about the provided disclosure?
3. I understand I need to sign a receipt of disclosure. What are my options if I'm not satisfied with the provided disclosure? Walk out refusing to receive the provided disclosure or accepting what they provide right now and then following up with further requests?
4. What's the best time of the day to go there?

I hope someone can shed some light on these before the morning. Really sorry for the short notice of this post.


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by: Radar Identified on
Tue Jul 28, 2015 11:39 pm

1. Clerk should have it.
2. See what they say. Sometimes a Prosecutor will come out and answer questions, but that hasn't been very often in my experience.
3. You still sign that you've received it. It doesn't mean you're satisfied with what you received, only that you picked it up. You can still request additional material as needed.
4. Dunno. Mid-morning?
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
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CrazeeGhost
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by: CrazeeGhost on
Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:44 pm

I went and picked up the disclosure. The only thing they gave me are the officer's notes. The clerk said there is no audio/visual evidence or they would have provided me the same. The question now is how to decipher the notes? They are poorly written and there is no typed version.

Is there a certain template/sequence to what they write on there?


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