Hi all, Hoping to get some insight. I got a notice for a handheld and requested an ERM. The Original date for the ERM was December 17, 2019. I requested to reschedule. On January 31, 2020 I received (through email) a notice for a new ERM date on February 12, 2020. The email went to my junk folder so I didn't even see it until today and I looked online to see a conviction was entered. My question is, the original notice says that the new meeting date must be within 30 days of the original ERM date. How can they convict me when the new ERM date wasn't within 30 days? How do I fight this? Any advice? Thanks
Hi all,
Hoping to get some insight.
I got a notice for a handheld and requested an ERM. The Original date for the ERM was December 17, 2019.
I requested to reschedule.
On January 31, 2020 I received (through email) a notice for a new ERM date on February 12, 2020.
The email went to my junk folder so I didn't even see it until today and I looked online to see a conviction was entered.
My question is, the original notice says that the new meeting date must be within 30 days of the original ERM date.
How can they convict me when the new ERM date wasn't within 30 days?
Go to your local POA court and file the paper work requesting a re-opening. They'll grant it. Once they do, don't bother with an ER meeting on that offence since the prosecution can't reduce anything----the $500 set fine on your ticket is already the minimum statutory fine (which neither they nor the court can lower any further). Plus, no one (prosecution or court) can do anything about the points nor the 3 day suspension. So, bottom line: your ONLY two options with that offence are either pay your ticket or go to trial. If you go to trial, know that they CAN seek a higher fine---the range is $500-$1000 (plus court costs). I hope that clarifies things for you.
Go to your local POA court and file the paper work requesting a re-opening. They'll grant it.
Once they do, don't bother with an ER meeting on that offence since the prosecution can't reduce anything----the $500 set fine on your ticket is already the minimum statutory fine (which neither they nor the court can lower any further). Plus, no one (prosecution or court) can do anything about the points nor the 3 day suspension. So, bottom line: your ONLY two options with that offence are either pay your ticket or go to trial. If you go to trial, know that they CAN seek a higher fine---the range is $500-$1000 (plus court costs).
Go to your local POA court and file the paper work requesting a re-opening. They'll grant it.
Once they do, don't bother with an ER meeting on that offence since the prosecution can't reduce anything----the $500 set fine on your ticket is already the minimum statutory fine (which neither they nor the court can lower any further). Plus, no one (prosecution or court) can do anything about the points nor the 3 day suspension. So, bottom line: your ONLY two options with that offence are either pay your ticket or go to trial. If you go to trial, know that they CAN seek a higher fine---the range is $500-$1000 (plus court costs).
I hope that clarifies things for you.
Thanks but my question is more about the ERM not being scheduled within 30 days. Is that cause for the ticket to be dismissed?
You're right that they had to reschedule your ERM within 30 days of Dec. 17/19 (as per POA s.5.1(4)). That would mean your second meeting should have taken place by Jan. 16/20. Of course, this is all assuming that you requested the rescheduling of the ERM BEFORE Dec. 17/19. If you didn't then you were convicted on that day. However, in seeking recourse, the appropriate remedy is not to dismiss the charge but rather to re-open the matter. That's how the courts treat those things (see s. 85). That's why I said they will grant your re-opening application. Remember, it would be prejudicial to the prosecution if your matter were simply to be dismissed based on a court error/delay, especially without a hearing on the matter. So (as is consistent with the legislation's intent and court interpretation on POA matters), they just re-open the matter and everyone gets their fair day in court.
You're right that they had to reschedule your ERM within 30 days of Dec. 17/19 (as per POA s.5.1(4)). That would mean your second meeting should have taken place by Jan. 16/20. Of course, this is all assuming that you requested the rescheduling of the ERM BEFORE Dec. 17/19. If you didn't then you were convicted on that day.
However, in seeking recourse, the appropriate remedy is not to dismiss the charge but rather to re-open the matter. That's how the courts treat those things (see s. 85). That's why I said they will grant your re-opening application. Remember, it would be prejudicial to the prosecution if your matter were simply to be dismissed based on a court error/delay, especially without a hearing on the matter. So (as is consistent with the legislation's intent and court interpretation on POA matters), they just re-open the matter and everyone gets their fair day in court.
Thanks for the response. I guess that what doesn't make sense is that the prosecution didn't reschedule within 30 days (I did request the reschedule prior to the date of the first meeting - about a week earlier). I was convicted on February 12 the day of the late rescheduled ERM. So let's say I hadn't been convicted yet. And the prosecution didn't reschedule The ERM within 30 days. Then what? I would have to go to court? There's no repercussions against the prosecutor? That doesn't make sense.
You're right that they had to reschedule your ERM within 30 days of Dec. 17/19 (as per POA s.5.1(4)). That would mean your second meeting should have taken place by Jan. 16/20. Of course, this is all assuming that you requested the rescheduling of the ERM BEFORE Dec. 17/19. If you didn't then you were convicted on that day.
However, in seeking recourse, the appropriate remedy is not to dismiss the charge but rather to re-open the matter. That's how the courts treat those things (see s. 85). That's why I said they will grant your re-opening application. Remember, it would be prejudicial to the prosecution if your matter were simply to be dismissed based on a court error/delay, especially without a hearing on the matter. So (as is consistent with the legislation's intent and court interpretation on POA matters), they just re-open the matter and everyone gets their fair day in court.
Thanks for the response.
I guess that what doesn't make sense is that the prosecution didn't reschedule within 30 days (I did request the reschedule prior to the date of the first meeting - about a week earlier). I was convicted on February 12 the day of the late rescheduled ERM.
So let's say I hadn't been convicted yet. And the prosecution didn't reschedule The ERM within 30 days. Then what? I would have to go to court? There's no repercussions against the prosecutor? That doesn't make sense.
And as far as I understand you have to apply for an extension of time which the prosecutor would not have done. I think my point is that the conviction should never have been entered in the first place and I should be entitled to dismiss based on the prosecutor not scheduling the erm meeting in time and not filing a request to extend time.
And as far as I understand you have to apply for an extension of time which the prosecutor would not have done.
I think my point is that the conviction should never have been entered in the first place and I should be entitled to dismiss based on the prosecutor not scheduling the erm meeting in time and not filing a request to extend time.
Last edited by Ta85 on Thu Feb 13, 2020 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
So, did you not attend your ERM on Feb. 12? If so, then the conviction is correct since you failed to attend. I hope you didn't just rely on the 30 day time frame provision as some sort of perceived fatal error and not attend your ER--is that what you did? If so, I wouldn't say that because it will not be re-opened. If we were talking several months in delay, you might be able to appeal and raise the 'prejudicial effect' of such an error, but in your case, we are only talking a matter of a few weeks and they would send you home quickly. The good news is that JP's are generally good about allowing a re-opening if you can establish that you didn't know about the ER date (or some other emergency prevented you from attending). In your case, you'll have to establish that you didn't read your emails before then and did not know about the Feb. 12 date, especially since you are the one who requested a re-scheduling. The court's view is that you should have been following up on when your new date was. That said, the chances are still good that they'll allow the re-opening if you simply word things correctly (without lying of course!). Oh, and by the way, early resolution meetings are actually scheduled by the court office; not the prosecution's office. Its all done by court staff; not employees of the prosecutor's office since the notice is a court document.
So, did you not attend your ERM on Feb. 12? If so, then the conviction is correct since you failed to attend. I hope you didn't just rely on the 30 day time frame provision as some sort of perceived fatal error and not attend your ER--is that what you did? If so, I wouldn't say that because it will not be re-opened. If we were talking several months in delay, you might be able to appeal and raise the 'prejudicial effect' of such an error, but in your case, we are only talking a matter of a few weeks and they would send you home quickly.
The good news is that JP's are generally good about allowing a re-opening if you can establish that you didn't know about the ER date (or some other emergency prevented you from attending). In your case, you'll have to establish that you didn't read your emails before then and did not know about the Feb. 12 date, especially since you are the one who requested a re-scheduling. The court's view is that you should have been following up on when your new date was. That said, the chances are still good that they'll allow the re-opening if you simply word things correctly (without lying of course!).
Oh, and by the way, early resolution meetings are actually scheduled by the court office; not the prosecution's office. Its all done by court staff; not employees of the prosecutor's office since the notice is a court document.
The original notice says "by law, the rescheduled date of your meeting must be within 30 days of your original meeting date". I was actually checking the regular mail for the notice. Instead it came by email and it was in my junk folder which is why I didn't see it. I called the courts today to find out what was going on, went online and saw the conviction, called in and the call centre said it was emailed which is when I went to check my junk mail. It was sent in January 31 which is still post 30days. If the 30 days are a "guideline" then that should be articulated but they aren't and as far as I understand, barring a motion to extend etc, they are to be strictly adhered to. Otherwise what's the point? As you mentioned I really only have two options (trial or plead guilty and pay) then is there really even a point in re-opening if I'm not taking it to trial?
The original notice says "by law, the rescheduled date of your meeting must be within 30 days of your original meeting date".
I was actually checking the regular mail for the notice. Instead it came by email and it was in my junk folder which is why I didn't see it. I called the courts today to find out what was going on, went online and saw the conviction, called in and the call centre said it was emailed which is when I went to check my junk mail. It was sent in January 31 which is still post 30days.
If the 30 days are a "guideline" then that should be articulated but they aren't and as far as I understand, barring a motion to extend etc, they are to be strictly adhered to. Otherwise what's the point?
As you mentioned I really only have two options (trial or plead guilty and pay) then is there really even a point in re-opening if I'm not taking it to trial?
If you don't plan on going to trial, then you really shouldn't waste your time and just pay the ticket. As previously mentioned, all this will do is re-open the matter. The court will correct any flaw via its jurisdiction in s. 85 of the POA and rely upon the OCA decision of Wadood. In paragraph 14, the Court of Appeal says: An important goal of the Provincial Offences Act is that cases be decided on their merits. A corollary to that goal is that a minor defect in a proceeding, not prejudicing a defendant, should not be given effect to.
If you don't plan on going to trial, then you really shouldn't waste your time and just pay the ticket. As previously mentioned, all this will do is re-open the matter. The court will correct any flaw via its jurisdiction in s. 85 of the POA and rely upon the OCA decision of Wadood.
In paragraph 14, the Court of Appeal says:
An important goal of the Provincial Offences Act is that cases be decided on their merits. A corollary to that goal is that a minor defect in a proceeding, not prejudicing a defendant, should not be given effect to.
Curious if you're a lawyer? As I read the case it's specifically about mistakes on a certificate of Offence. Not the same as missing a legislated deadline. I really appreciate all your input!
Curious if you're a lawyer?
As I read the case it's specifically about mistakes on a certificate of Offence.
Well, you seem adamant that such a deadline is indeed crucial when the legislation and case law says otherwise. I've even given you sections and case law. So, it seems the only way you are going to be satisfied of the answer is if the court specifically rules on your matter. You should therefore file for an Appeal then; not a re-opening. And if you lose on that, by all means, take it up to Superior Court by filing an Application for Certiorari and try your arguments. Let us know how you make out. Good luck!
Well, you seem adamant that such a deadline is indeed crucial when the legislation and case law says otherwise. I've even given you sections and case law. So, it seems the only way you are going to be satisfied of the answer is if the court specifically rules on your matter. You should therefore file for an Appeal then; not a re-opening. And if you lose on that, by all means, take it up to Superior Court by filing an Application for Certiorari and try your arguments.
I wasn't being sarcastic...I was enjoying the discussion. And yes, you have referred to case law which I've looked at and countered. You've provided legislation, as have I where the provision that I reference clearly mentions 30 days. If it was a loosey goosey timeline then it would say "the rescheduled meeting should be within a reasonable time". Courts interpret grey areas yes but they don't necessarily question hard deadlines and, where they are allowed to (such as the section you mentioned where a court can extend a deadline), a court doesn't do that without the request of a party to do so. Why does a defendant have a hard deadline of 15 days to dispute a ticket or request a meeting but the requirement to schedule a meeting within 30 days of the original date can be extended without any judicial review?
I wasn't being sarcastic...I was enjoying the discussion.
And yes, you have referred to case law which I've looked at and countered.
You've provided legislation, as have I where the provision that I reference clearly mentions 30 days. If it was a loosey goosey timeline then it would say "the rescheduled meeting should be within a reasonable time". Courts interpret grey areas yes but they don't necessarily question hard deadlines and, where they are allowed to (such as the section you mentioned where a court can extend a deadline), a court doesn't do that without the request of a party to do so.
Why does a defendant have a hard deadline of 15 days to dispute a ticket or request a meeting but the requirement to schedule a meeting within 30 days of the original date can be extended without any judicial review?
The re-opening and appeal remedies are there to address such 'hard" deadlines. Nothing is preventing you from trying your arguments except time and money. So, I say, go for it---maybe you'll end up changing things. Someone's gotta be the first.
The re-opening and appeal remedies are there to address such 'hard" deadlines. Nothing is preventing you from trying your arguments except time and money. So, I say, go for it---maybe you'll end up changing things. Someone's gotta be the first.
Hi so I have a bizzare situation. Today I received a summons for "being the owner of a motor vehicle bearing Vehicle Identification Number ###, failed to submit the vehicle, equipment or drawn vehicle for inspection or tests as required by an officer" for a vehicle I previously owned. Apparently a violation of HTA 82(9).
The date of offense is June 15, the summons was issued on October 26th and I…
Hi, I need some help for the ticket of lmproper left turn.
When i drove my car from east to west, intending to make a left turn and stop in front of stop line. There was a car in front of me, which has turn on yellow light. The light was turning red and then I thought I cannot leave in the intersection and turned, an incoming car was runing the light and hit me. No one got hurt but both cars had…
Have a ticket in which the radar used was a Genesis VP Directional. I had downloaded the manual for a Genesis VP but I now realize that the unit is not the same so it is the wrong manual. My trial is very soon so I do not have time to ask for disclosure of the manual.
Does anyone have access to an electronic version of the manual for Genesis VP Directional?
I was pulled over today in the city of Oakville for going 75 in a 40 zone. However, I am 100 percent certain that I was going only 50 in the 40 zone. When I was pulled over, I was driving my Dad's car which I felt was the reason I was getting stopped since two teenagers driving a 2013 S Class. He asked does I know why I am being pulled over and I…
I really need help on fighting my 9 tickets i received from one police officer. Here is some background of what happened!
I was caught speeding 66km on a 40km (school zone) on January 29, 2010. I was driving my friend's car and turns out she didnt renew the validation on the vehicle and didnt leave the up to date insurance paper on the car.
Hey question that I think here's probably the best place to get the answer:
I was charged with a careless driving offence in oct, trail in early april, so as of right now my insurance record is 100% clean... except the officer did file an accident report at the scene where I was classified at fault due to it being PI (although very minor). The person I hit did not sue etc, so the insurance company…
Very much unintentionally passed a stopped bus, with sign and flashing lights. Didn't realize I had done it until I was at the end of the bus. I'll save you my sob story, but it was truly accidental. I'm generally very cautious and have a perfect driving record. Never been stopped.
While I realize if a cop had seen me that I would have gotten a ticket, there were none in sight. Though I may very…
I was recently pulled over for running a red and I wasnt able to find my wallet in the car at the time to hand over my license. I had a passport in the vehicle that he used. The wallet was in the vehicle, it just fell through the seats. (Tough to find a black leather wallet in a black/black leather truck at night).
The officer still wrote the tickets for both he signed the one ticket (failure to…
I was passing a vehicle that was going slow for me and there was an oncoming vehicle coming at me. I speed up to get around the person I was passing and the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop who turns around and tickets me for going 110km in a 80km zone. How does it work with passing a vehicle? Once I passed the vehicle I went back down to my original speed of just under 100. The officer…
I picked up a brand new (old stock) Fuzzbuster a while ago at auction (wopping $5!!) and I want to mount it on the dash of my old GTO as a cool accessory when I show it at car shows. But I'm not sure if it's legal or not.
Here's my thoughts:
- It is early 70's technology (x-band) so it won't detect modern police radar. That's assuming no police force uses the old x-band frequency.
Hi guys, I'm still a little in shock of getting my first traffic ticket...
On Monday afternoon, I was returning from Toronto to Ottawa on HW416, I was driving about 15 over 100 like always. Then a car came very close to me on the left lane and made me nervous, I speed up unintentionally to pass the car and change lane, but while doing that a police car pull out of the median. He was hiding in…
May i ask this question regarding transport trucks limited to 105 km/h. Moving road blocks or safety?
IMO it isnt speed that kills. I find transport trucks infact help keep the road going. With cars that choose to not move to the right and slow down the middle lane the trucks would try to pass in their passing lane therefore the slower traffic would move right.
Received a notice from the police that a motion is being put forward to adjourn upcoming trial date. Notice indicates that an officer has sworn an affidavit that the crucial witness cannot attend date trial is set for (we know there is a social engagement at 7:30 pm for the witness, trial time is 1:30 pm). This further delay is a big problem to my daughter's case. She is moving away to…
This is what happened. I was travelling west on a four lane city street that was very light with traffic. I was making a left hand turn into a wide driveway of a business. There was traffic lights about 100 yards past the driveway and were red for the east-west traffic. I was in the left lane with my signal on and there was no oncoming traffic due to the red light. I was slowed right down…
I was driving my families older car and got pulled over, and the police officer informed me my plate was dirty. He issued me a ticket of $110 for the 13(2) act and obstruct plate as the offense. He informed me that such a plate could be used to avoid red lights as well as 407 tolls, also that buying a new plate can help to lower the ticket if I fight the charge, and that he also took a picture…
I received a red light camera ticket. In the picture, you see an ambulance in front of me with flashing lights. I had moved to alleviate the traffic behind me for the emergency vehicles coming behind it.
Is this a possible defense, if so, does anyone know any good case law to justify this position?
what happens if they charge someone for driving at 151Km/hr in montreal and they put for trial, appear after some months and sadly lost the trial ?
In montreal its $300 fine and 5demerit points ...
I heard Ontario and Qubec share the information. So once the trial is over ( and when the file moved to ontario) will his car gets towed and licence get suspended for 7days (later to 30 days ) ? and he…
I got a notice in the mail that trial is set four weeks from today, so it's time to request disclosure. I have zero chance of getting an 11b since trial is less than two months after the offense date and the officer did not reduce the charge. I really want to try and create delays on the trial, to reduce the chance of the officer showing up on multiple occasions. Is there any known loop-holes…
This weekend my father was involved in an accident with a transit bus in Burlington, ON. After the police showed up he was charged with "Fail to obey stop sign" Sec. 136(1)(a). At this particular intersection there NO stop signs but there are traffic lights. There is construction going on there so one of the light posts is smaller.
Driving conditions were terribly wet and visibility was low.…
So my boyfriend and I recently started dating. I have a vehicle that was insured. Insurance cost too much and I found it was just as easy to walk to work due to how close it was. But I didn't want to get rid of my car just yet, plus I'm still making payments on it as well. When we moved into our appartment together, I had it towed to my parking spot out back.
I was making a left hand legal turn on a green light, a driver came through the lane I was supposed to be going into ran the red and hit me head on as I was turning into my lane. When the officer came he was telling me that I was racing and driving recklessly because apparently there was reports of street racing in the area. I was not charged on the scene for this but I'm scared i am going to be…
I got a ticket for failure to surrender insurance because I did not have my new insurance stubs with me, just a bunch of expired ones. My policy number has not changed, so I asked the officer to just run the policy number so I could prove that I was in fact insured. He said they don't have that ability, handed me the ticket and reminded me that my car could have been impounded.
So I'm in a bit of a pickle and would appreciate if someone could clarify something for me.
I'm less than a month away (test on April 6th) from getting my full G license, and got a speeding ticket recently. The ticket was for 49km/h over the posted limit of 100km/h on the 403 in Oakville/Halton region, but was reduced from the initial ~60km/h over.
