20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

burgerkong
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20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by burgerkong »

Hey all, Merry Christmas and Happy New Years.

I'm a 22-year old male with a clean driving record prior to this. Just over a month ago (Nov 21), I got pulled over in London ON while driving my girlfriend's car, under her mom's insurance. I was returning from a job fair after classes (currently a student at Western University).

The officer stated I was going 20 over the speed limit, 80km/hr in a 60 zone. Officer asked for my license, ownership, insurance. I provided them, and the officer asked why the name and address on the insurance & ownership didn't match my license. In a panic, I forgot that insurance policies cover occasional borrowing (iirc) stated that I was related and currently living there, and he gave me a ticket for both the speeding and failure to change address. He also noted that the front license plate was missing but didn't ticket me for it; it had been apparently knocked off over the weekend while we were in a parking lot, and didn't notice.

Looking back on it, I gave way more information than I needed to and suffered an extra ticket because of it, and am hoping I can get it taken off depending on disclosure. My current legal address is still my parents' house in Markham, and I am still under their insurance.

Here are links to the ticket images below. Apologies in advance for the blurred photos, I have a tic with twitchy fingers:
http://i.imgur.com/JxkmKXQ.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/2qeFESt.jpg

Posted a thread to the London ON subreddit for advice immediately afterwards. The thread has since been removed, but on the advice of those there, I mailed in my ticket for Early Resolution a few days later. A lot of people recommended going to represent myself, taking a plea deal to remove one of the tickets, etc.

I received the notice a few days ago, my scheduled Early Resolution meeting is on April 26, 2017. Planning on mailing disclosure request next week after holidays, using a premade document from ticketcombat.com.

I've been busy with exams leading up to now, and am only now just delving into how to tackle this now that I'm back home. I'm hoping my actions (aside from the obvious mistake when talking to the officer) don't hurt my case any further.

Please let me know if I missed any pertinent details. Thanks all, and happy holidays.

Sincerely,
- BK


daggx
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by daggx »

I think if you explain at early resolution that you live at the address on your licence and were just borrowing the car then that ticket should get dropped, if you have some additional proof that you live there like a utility bill or a rental agreement, that wouldn't hurt. The speeding ticket will be harder to beat. In terms of requesting disclosure the only things you need to ask for are, a full copy of the police officer’s notes, a copy of both sides of the officer’s copy of the ticket, any video evidence the crown intends to use and possibly the testing page from the radar manual of the radar device the officer used. The ticket combat sample disclosure form has some other items listed on it that only apply if you have been in an accident, it is best to leave those out of your request since they don't apply to your case.


burgerkong
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by burgerkong »

daggx wrote:I think if you explain at early resolution that you live at the address on your licence and were just borrowing the car then that ticket should get dropped, if you have some additional proof that you live there like a utility bill or a rental agreement, that wouldn't hurt.
Thanks for the advice. I hope for this too! I'm just worried if the officer notes accurately recall my statements, would the discrepancy result in them finding that I made a false statement.

Also, can I get the 'failed to notify change of address' ticket dropped at Early Resolution, and then decide to take my speeding ticket to trial? Or will they likely offer to drop one in exchange for pleading guilty for the other.
daggx wrote:In terms of requesting disclosure the only things you need to ask for are, a full copy of the police officer’s notes, a copy of both sides of the officer’s copy of the ticket, any video evidence the crown intends to use and possibly the testing page from the radar manual of the radar device the officer used. The ticket combat sample disclosure form has some other items listed on it that only apply if you have been in an accident, it is best to leave those out of your request since they don't apply to your case.
I understand that the speeding ticket is very hard to beat. "Absolute liability" iirc? I'm honestly not too hopeful about this one. The officer did make some mistakes on the eTicket, but there's no fatal error or anything to get it dismissed on a technicality to my knowledge.

I changed the disclosure document to just ask for:

- a full copy of the police officer’s notes;
- a copy of both sides of the officer’s copy of the ticket (Notice of Offence);
- a typed version of any hand written notes;
- testing page from the radar manual of the radar device used

The witness & defendant stuff was removed.

Thanks, and its officially Christmas! Have a good one tomorrow everyone!
- BK


jsherk
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by jsherk »

If you want to fight the speeding ticket, then they will not drop the other one. They will most likely offer to drop the other one, only if you agree to a guilty plea on the speeding ticket.

So if you want to fight the speeding ticket, then you would also need to fight the other one as well.
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


burgerkong
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by burgerkong »

jsherk wrote:If you want to fight the speeding ticket, then they will not drop the other one. They will most likely offer to drop the other one, only if you agree to a guilty plea on the speeding ticket.

So if you want to fight the speeding ticket, then you would also need to fight the other one as well.
That's what I figured, thanks for the clarification jsherk.


ynotp
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by ynotp »

You really need to review disclosure before you begin to decide on how to handle this one. Early resolution is not going to result in anything other than a plea bargain. Once you have reviewed disclosure and determined that you have a very good chance of beating the speeding ticket then I would go to trial. The license charge should be easy enough to beat at trial as you only got it because you mislead the officer (which could lead to other charges). The only problem is that in beating the license address charge will mean that you will have to admit that you lied to the officer to begin with. Being an admitted liar will cause your overall credibility to suffer. This being said if your defense is likely to lead that the the charge against you cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (such as a testing issue) your credibility isn't necessarily an issue.

Did you subsequently change your address? (if you did you got some splaining to do in court)


burgerkong
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by burgerkong »

ynotp wrote:You really need to review disclosure before you begin to decide on how to handle this one. Early resolution is not going to result in anything other than a plea bargain. Once you have reviewed disclosure and determined that you have a very good chance of beating the speeding ticket then I would go to trial. The license charge should be easy enough to beat at trial as you only got it because you mislead the officer (which could lead to other charges). The only problem is that in beating the license address charge will mean that you will have to admit that you lied to the officer to begin with. Being an admitted liar will cause your overall credibility to suffer. This being said if your defense is likely to lead that the the charge against you cannot be proven beyond a reasonable doubt (such as a testing issue) your credibility isn't necessarily an issue.

Did you subsequently change your address? (if you did you got some splaining to do in court)
Yep, won't make any commitments until disclosure is received of course. And I figured that going to court and admitting I lied to the officer because of panic & misunderstanding isn't going to do well.

I'm considering plea bargain if they offer the removal of a ticket, but that's a few months away.

I have not changed my address on any of my official documentation.

Thanks ynotp :)


OTD Legal
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by OTD Legal »

The Speeding offence is a 3 demerit point offence from what you describe, and the other ticket should be a 0 demerit point offence.

Withdrawing a 0 demerit point offence upon condition of pleaing to a 3 demerit point offence may not be a particularly beneficial resolution.
The content of this post is not legal advice. Legal advice can only be provided after a licenced paralegal has been retained, spoken with you directly, and reviewed the documents related to your case.


burgerkong
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by burgerkong »

OTD Legal wrote:The Speeding offence is a 3 demerit point offence from what you describe, and the other ticket should be a 0 demerit point offence.

Withdrawing a 0 demerit point offence upon condition of pleaing to a 3 demerit point offence may not be a particularly beneficial resolution.
Hey OTD Legal,

My main concern isn't demerit points. As stated, I had a clean driving record up to this point, so I'm not worried about 3 points.

I'm mostly worried about insurance. I'm a 22yo male, which has my insurance high enough as is, and both tickets would raise my insurance to my knowledge, since they're both under the HTA (iirc they're both minors). I've heard that demerit points don't have a bearing on most insurance companies, only the conviction itself.

From my understanding, it's far more likely for them to drop the Fail to Change Address than the speeding ticket.

Thanks,
- BK


OTD Legal
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Re: 20 km/h over (80 in 60) and Failure to Change Address

Unread post by OTD Legal »

burgerkong wrote: My main concern isn't demerit points. As stated, I had a clean driving record up to this point, so I'm not worried about 3 points.

I'm mostly worried about insurance. I'm a 22yo male, which has my insurance high enough as is, and both tickets would raise my insurance to my knowledge, since they're both under the HTA (iirc they're both minors). I've heard that demerit points don't have a bearing on most insurance companies, only the conviction itself.

From my understanding, it's far more likely for them to drop the Fail to Change Address than the speeding ticket.
While demerit points are not causal to risk assessment, they are correlated. Your insurance broker will be able to provide you the most accurate feedback. Your insurance may make a distinction between a moving violation and a non-moving violation. If I were to make a guess, not being a licenced insurance provider, I would personally assume a 3 demerit point offence for traveling above the posted speed limit would incur greater risk assessment than having neglected to update my address with the MTO.




The content of this post is not legal advice. Legal advice can only be provided after a licenced paralegal has been retained, spoken with you directly, and reviewed the documents related to your case.


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