jsherk wrote:My personal opinion is that you need to use the shotgun approach when fighting a ticket, because if you are relying on only one thing, then there is a good chance that they will have answer and you are done. With the shotgun approach, they need an answer for each point you bring up AND it gives a greater chance for the JP to make a mistake AND it gives you more ammunition for an appeal if you lose at trial.

Totally agree with you

If I lose, it is a minor conviction with 3 points

If I go for plea bargin, I still get a conviction but no point

Impact on insurance is the SAME.

I will shoot like a machine gun and enjoy the process.

The prosecutor tried very hard to scare me out of the trial. I was very surprised why she wants to adjourn

saying there is not enough time. The JP said there is enough time and asked if there is something... I can see the JP

realized that the prosecutor didn't want to go ahead.. and allow the adjournment.

If I don't have a leg to stand on, the prosecutor should try to get me out within 10 mins. It was 20 mins to noon.

The prosecutor request an hour to try my case. That is very big deal for a stop sign case... I don't think that will last that long.

I will enjoy every second of that.

Whereas the judge will not. Scattergun approaches by self representing defendants just piss them off and you might see the effect on sentence. It won't be much but you have to ask yourself why the professional lawyers don't use the same tactic if it is so successful.

argyll wrote:Whereas the judge will not. Scattergun approaches by self representing defendants just piss them off and you might see the effect on sentence. It won't be much but you have to ask yourself why the professional lawyers don't use the same tactic if it is so successful.

I pay more to see asport game

I will have a good time with a prosecutor and judge play Judge Judy with me

fisherman7351 wrote:I pay more to see asport game

I will have a good time with a prosecutor and judge play Judge Judy with me

Good for you! Per-diem prosecutors love people like you who just want to go to court even when they have very little chance of winning because the per-diem gets paid by the hour (at a very good hourly rate too!).

So, knock yourself out. Take time out of your work day (if you work), spend money on parking, waste a few hours sitting in court and preparing for your case, and then go argue your case in court. You'll definitely learn quite a bit, especially the difference between set fines and statutory fines; not to mention the proper rules of evidence. In your case, the prosecutor could ask for up to $500 (the statutory max for the offence). Given that they have video of you not stopping AND its an absolute liability offence (with no due diligence defense), you're really gonna make a per-diem prosecutor's day. Its easy money for them.

While there are cheaper ways to learn things, its your money. The system needs people like you. So, have fun learning and spending your money.

The system definitley needs people like you that are willing to take a stand for their rights and learn how the un-justice system in Canada and Ontario works. Even if you don't win, it is the cost of your education in how it all works.

Personally I think ALL stop signs should be replaced with yield signs which would eliminate the cash grad of absolute liability offences like this. I hate absolute liability offences as they do not have to prove that what you did was actually unsafe and/or caused a problem for anybody.

One of the first lessons most should learn is that if you're not happy with some law, run for office or lobby your government. That's democracy. Unfortunately, many go to court thinking their displeasure with a law is a defence or going to change things. You're in the wrong building folks!

Democracy is using the rights that were giving to you such as the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty and the right to a fair trial by an impratial person. This means it is well within your rights to take every single charge, no matter how small or minor, to court and have them prove you are are guilty, regardless of whether you think you are guilty or not. You are innocent until they prove otherwise. Make them work for it!

"Make them work for it!" That statement speaks volumes...

Regardless of anything else that happens...

If your trial does, indeed, wind up being under twenty minutes (and I highly suspect that will be the case), you should consider filing a complaint against the prosecutor with the prosecutor's office. She has the experience to know how long a trial will likely take. It seems she wanted the adjournment because she acknowledged some of the disclosure was improper and wanted a second chance. Prosecutors' offices do take complaints seriously.

jsherk wrote:Democracy is using the rights that were giving to you such as the right to be considered innocent until proven guilty and the right to a fair trial by an impratial person. This means it is well within your rights to take every single charge, no matter how small or minor, to court and have them prove you are are guilty, regardless of whether you think you are guilty or not. You are innocent until they prove otherwise. Make them work for it!

Theoretically, there's NOTHING wrong with putting the Crown to its burden, regardless of innocence or guilt. That's a constitutional right. But practically speaking, I find it foolish when folks actually spend their time and money exercising rights that they can reasonably assume will yield them no positive outcome or benefit and will actually waste more of their own resources. If only they would dedicate such time, energy and effort to causes that could yield something of benefit; they might actually better themselves and/or society.

Some folks truly ARE innocent; some also have valid defences and/or excuses---those folks should definitely go to court. But then there are also individuals who only go to court because they have a genuine belief that they are correct (even though the law and evidence says otherwise). Going to court for those people will hopefully be helpful since they will learn from their mistake and hopefully correct their ways. So, again, its not a waste of time to go to court---something good will yield. But, then there's another group of individuals----those that only go to court out of stubbornness or passive-aggressiveness. Those are the ones I think society actually feels sad for because they become victims of the system. After all, their emotions or personalities have simply gotten the best of them and they'll never learn. They will spend more of their time, money and effort on causes that will yield them very little, if anything. That's sad.

Everyone should therefore always ask themselves under which category they belong!

Good post.

highwaystar wrote:

fisherman7351 wrote:I pay more to see asport game

I will have a good time with a prosecutor and judge play Judge Judy with me

Good for you! Per-diem prosecutors love people like you who just want to go to court even when they have very little chance of winning because the per-diem gets paid by the hour (at a very good hourly rate too!).

So, knock yourself out. Take time out of your work day (if you work), spend money on parking, waste a few hours sitting in court and preparing for your case, and then go argue your case in court. You'll definitely learn quite a bit, especially the difference between set fines and statutory fines; not to mention the proper rules of evidence. In your case, the prosecutor could ask for up to $500 (the statutory max for the offence). Given that they have video of you not stopping AND its an absolute liability offence (with no due diligence defense), you're really gonna make a per-diem prosecutor's day. Its easy money for them.

While there are cheaper ways to learn things, its your money. The system needs people like you. So, have fun learning and spending your money.

I don't see why you say what you said here. Are you trying to scare me to plea guilty????

I really don't need your bull ****

I am retired so I have all the time in the world to play this game.

I have accessible parking plate and I don't have to pay for parking

My son lives a few minutes away from that Court and I normally go to stay there a few days per week.

Satutory fine ???? What kind of bull*** is that??? If I lose the case, I pay whatever on the ticket. Unless the judge want to risk his cosy job, I dare him to increase the set fine... What make you think that they can increase the fine because I fought them too hard?? I have the right to defend myself.

I am innocent until proven guilty...

I know how JP got their job. The majority of them are NOT lawyer.

Just because English is not my first language does not mean I can be scared by people like you.

I like to thank Jsherk who has provided very good advice. charter of right challenge 6 days after the adjounment.

I have filed 11b challenge and hand delivered them to Ag Canada, Ontario, Prosecutor and Court all in one day.

For those who want to scare people like me off ... I donot need your bull ****

So you only like those responses with which you agree and will hurl insults at those who dare to offer a different opinion ?!

You CAN be fined more if you go to trial and are found guilty. It happens all the time. The set fine is for those who choose to pay the ticket, if you choose to go to court then the judge can impose anything within the parameters laid down in the Act.

"What make you think that they can increase the fine because I fought them too hard?? "

Ummm,....the law ?

fisherman7351 wrote:...

I don't see why you say what you said here. Are you trying to scare me to plea guilty????

I really don't need your bull ****

Its not bull **** if its true. Don't be so sensitive.

fisherman7351 wrote:

Satutory fine ???? What kind of bull*** is that??? If I lose the case, I pay whatever on the ticket. Unless the judge want to risk his cosy job, I dare him to increase the set fine... What make you think that they can increase the fine because I fought them too hard?? I have the right to defend myself.

Clearly, you have no concept of how the fine system works. Statutory fines apply the moment you go in to court. In your case, section 214 applies. That means, a minimum of $60 (which almost never happens with that charge!) to a maximum of $500. Generally, you can expect between $200-400 (depending on several factors).

I only wish I could be in attendance to see you DARE the JP to increase the fine beyond the set fine. Clearly, you haven't read case law. The set fine is simply NOT applicable and it is an error of law for a JP to just 'rubber stamp' and order the set fine. They certainly CAN order an amount equivalent to the set fine (but that's simply because its within the statutory range). The trend lately is to order a higher fine.

fisherman7351 wrote:

I have filed 11b challenge and hand delivered them to Ag Canada, Ontario, Prosecutor and Court all in one day.

Good for you. Hopefully you'll learn a lot about the system from going through the effort of doing a Charter application. I hope you 'perfected' your application so that it is actually heard by the court. Of course, I suspect you also haven't read the latest Supreme Court decision on 11b delays in courts (I'd cite the decision for you but I don't want to scare you any further!). A 10 month delay will simply be laughed at by the court. So, good luck with your application!

So, in conclusion, you've clearly shown your ignorance in law thus far and even more so towards those trying to steer you in the right direction. I therefore suspect that unless the case has a serious evidentiary flaw, you'll be outplayed very quickly by any experienced prosecutor! There ARE ways to attack these cases (and case law) to back it up. But, given that you don't want any bull ****, scare easy, and seem to think you know it all----I'll refrain from offering any more suggestions. I've already taught you about 11B delays, statutory fines, AND by-law requirements. That's enough education for one case!

highwaystar wrote:

fisherman7351 wrote:...

I don't see why you say what you said here. Are you trying to scare me to plea guilty????

I really don't need your bull ****

Its not bull **** if its true. Don't be so sensitive.

fisherman7351 wrote:

Satutory fine ???? What kind of bull*** is that??? If I lose the case, I pay whatever on the ticket. Unless the judge want to risk his cosy job, I dare him to increase the set fine... What make you think that they can increase the fine because I fought them too hard?? I have the right to defend myself.

Clearly, you have no concept of how the fine system works. Statutory fines apply the moment you go in to court. In your case, section 214 applies. That means, a minimum of $60 (which almost never happens with that charge!) to a maximum of $500. Generally, you can expect between $200-400 (depending on several factors).

I only wish I could be in attendance to see you DARE the JP to increase the fine beyond the set fine. Clearly, you haven't read case law. The set fine is simply NOT applicable and it is an error of law for a JP to just 'rubber stamp' and order the set fine. They certainly CAN order an amount equivalent to the set fine (but that's simply because its within the statutory range). The trend lately is to order a higher fine.

fisherman7351 wrote:

I have filed 11b challenge and hand delivered them to Ag Canada, Ontario, Prosecutor and Court all in one day.

Good for you. Hopefully you'll learn a lot about the system from going through the effort of doing a Charter application. I hope you 'perfected' your application so that it is actually heard by the court. Of course, I suspect you also haven't read the latest Supreme Court decision on 11b delays in courts (I'd cite the decision for you but I don't want to scare you any further!). A 10 month delay will simply be laughed at by the court. So, good luck with your application!

So, in conclusion, you've clearly shown your ignorance in law thus far and even more so towards those trying to steer you in the right direction. I therefore suspect that unless the case has a serious evidentiary flaw, you'll be outplayed very quickly by any experienced prosecutor! There ARE ways to attack these cases (and case law) to back it up. But, given that you don't want any bull ****, scare easy, and seem to think you know it all----I'll refrain from offering any more suggestions. I've already taught you about 11B delays, statutory fines, AND by-law requirements. That's enough education for one case!

I don't have to learn any system

I go in and put up my defence

If the JP doesn't like it, he can find me guilty

What else can he/she do?

Don't try to scare me. I am ready to go through the whole dame show and have the fines ready....

I will enjoy my time..