Ontariohighwaytrafficact.com

So Just picked up my disclosure for a trial next Wednesday as i was busy with exams and all. So what i got was a copy of the ticket and some BS chicken written notes. I cant read **** there.I have uploaded three files.

My disclosure request (what i asked for)

The ticket copy that i got

and the Notes that i got(BTW the color of the car is wrong)

LINK - EDITED OUT - by HTA Moderator HB (no officer name or badge number permitted - remove as you did for your personal info & repost )

LINK UPDATED and re-inserted, HTA Moderator HB

http://img12.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=disclosures.jpg

Heres the album of three pictures i scanned in HIGH RES.So what you see is what i see. Just click the picture and zoom

I literally didn't get anything i asked for.No make or model,no manual,the notes weren't even typed.

Even though i am bias i think this disclosure is pretty inadequate.Hence is it possible i can get a delay of hearing to a further date?

Could someone please advise me my best course of action right now

I also got some feedback from RFD and people there said that i should look for a stay of proceeding on the grounds of improper disclosure or at least get an adjournment.

Thanks

You're not likely to get a stay just because you didn't get what you asked for the first time. If you are seeking further disclosure, you'll likely get an adjournment.

Also, with regards to your disclosure request, you probably got all of the officer's notes (that is the front and back of the ticket). There are probably not any witness statements to get. You're not automatically going to get a typed copy of the notes unless you get the handwritten ones first and can't read them. Then you can make a further request for a typed copy. "Training record specific to the laser unit" doesn't mean anything. Did you mean to ask for the officer's training record (you're not going to get that - he's just going to testify that he was qualified to operate the unit) or did you mean to ask for the maintenance and calibration records of the unit (you may get that, but you may be asked why you want it). You will probably get the testing procedure if you ask, but you won't necessarily get the whole manual, so for those two items you could ask again. The officer probably did not make any notes of any statements made by you and that's why they're not included. The make, model and s/n are on the 1st 2 lines, but I admit I'm not exactly clear on which is which.

All in all it sounds like you got most of the info you request/is available. If you want further info you should make a 2nd request and specific exactly what you want and why and if you don't get it before court you can ask for an adjournment and get it on the record that inadequate disclosure is the reason (then it goes on the crown's clock if you're going to file an 11(b) motion later).

Ya i knw most likely i will not get a stay so my goal is to get a adjournment on the grounds of improper disclosure. I cant ask them for additional right now as they will not have enough time to return it to me because the trial is on the 13 or should i file for it anyway? So most likely i will go there and ask the jp for adjourment

It probably doesn't really matter when you ask for it, except that if you delay unnecessarily, it may be counted against you in an 11(b) calculation. My opinion is that it would look better if you showed up to court saying that you've already made a 2nd request for outstanding materials, rather than showing up and saying, "well, they sent me stuff but it was incomplete and no, I didn't notify them of that yet".

The only thing missing from the disclosure request that would result in a stay of proceedings is the relevant portions of the radar/lidar manual.

Maybe I read the coding incorrectly, but I didn't see an indication that the officer stopped your vehicle "without sight lost" or coding/letters to that effect.

LINK - EDITED OUT on first post

(no officer name or badge number permitted - remove as you did for your personal info & repost )

HTA Moderator

HB

http://img12.imageshack.us/gal.php?g=disclosures.jpg (mod could you put this link in my intial post)

Heres the link uploaded again

So basically my decision is to file for additional disclosure tomorrow and at the trial ask for adjournment on the grounds of improper disclosure. But my question is should i ask for a stay for which if rejected ill get an adjournment or should i just go for the adjournment right away.

Link updated in orginal post

HTA Moderator

HB

You don't just ask for a stay, you have to prepare and file a motion.

Simon Borys wrote:

You're not likely to get a stay just because you didn't get what you asked for the first time. If you are seeking further disclosure, you'll likely get an adjournment.

If you ask for a stay from the JP when you are called up to plead and you get an adjournment, your new court date will most likely be one on that JP's next scheduled court dates and not the date that the officer has his/her cases scheduled for (maybe adds another 2 to 4 months). That would reduce the chance of the officer showing up as they would most likely only have one case on that date. The officer may like the overtime but his/her superior may decide it's not cost effective to pay this just to convict one speeding ticket (they are trying to manage their budgets like everyone else). The old "the cop didn't show up" doesn't happen as much as it used to because they have gotten smart and book all the officers appearances on a single day making it more cost effective for the police. This works against that strategy.

Radar Identified wrote:

Maybe I read the coding incorrectly, but I didn't see an indication that the officer stopped your vehicle "without sight lost" or coding/letters to that effect.

Is this in reference to the tracking history? Is it mandatory that something about tracking history be recorded in the officer's notes?

Simon Borys wrote:

You don't just ask for a stay, you have to prepare and file a motion.

Can OP ask JP to quash the case?

Or is a motion also needed for that?

bilal388 wrote:

Ya i knw most likely i will not get a stay so my goal is to get a adjournment on the grounds of improper disclosure. I cant ask them for additional right now as they will not have enough time to return it to me because the trial is on the 13 or should i file for it anyway? So most likely i will go there and ask the jp for adjourment

I would still ask for a stay and not an adjournment based on the fact that you didn't get full disclosure. You never know, but you might get it. Otherwise, if the JP determines that the prosecutor did not do their job by providing full disclosure and you erred by either not asking again for it or by not filing a proper motion ahead of the court date, an adjournment is seen as a compromise (ie. neither you or the prosecutor gets what you asked for). It may help if you end up filing an 11B later allowing you to claim some or all of the delay was caused by the prosecutor not providing full disclosure when requested.

Actually, instead of asking for a stay I asked for a "dismissal" which I believe is not the proper term but tells the JP you do not have a lot of knowledge in the law and therefore he/she needs to help you out. The JP seems to give the most amount of help to the least knowledgeable plaintiffs so at this point you don't want to appear too smart.

fredfred wrote:

If you ask for a stay from the JP when you are called up to plead and you get an adjournment, your new court date will most likely be one on that JP's next scheduled court dates and not the date that the officer has his/her cases scheduled for (maybe adds another 2 to 4 months). That would reduce the chance of the officer showing up as they would most likely only have one case on that date. .

The courts don't care which JP is "sitting" for court. They schedule as per officer availability/schedule (courts also have each officer's booked vacation dates to avoid)

hwybear wrote:

fredfred wrote:

If you ask for a stay from the JP when you are called up to plead and you get an adjournment, your new court date will most likely be one on that JP's next scheduled court dates and not the date that the officer has his/her cases scheduled for (maybe adds another 2 to 4 months). That would reduce the chance of the officer showing up as they would most likely only have one case on that date. .

The courts don't care which JP is "sitting" for court. They schedule as per officer availability/schedule (courts also have each officer's booked vacation dates to avoid)

That may be true if a motion is filed in advance, but when one is asked for in court and the JP decides to give an adjournment (after telling you that you should have given proper notice) he asks the court reporter what his next trial date is, and it is set for that one or the next one if the reporter says, "you have xx cases on that day and there is no room". The cop is sitting there and no one asks him/her whether it is a good date for them or whether this is their "special" day where all their cases are heard.

Court Reporter has officer availability matched with court dates right in front of them (on the computer) and that is what they choose for adjournment dates. I know, been there dozens of times (when defendant wants an adjournment at last minute), just flip open my daytimer and add the person to the new date, always just an add on to the list.

Only time they care which JP is a continuation of the same trial in progress, which the same JP will continue the trial.

fredfred wrote:

hwybear wrote:

fredfred wrote:

If you ask for a stay from the JP when you are called up to plead and you get an adjournment, your new court date will most likely be one on that JP's next scheduled court dates and not the date that the officer has his/her cases scheduled for (maybe adds another 2 to 4 months). That would reduce the chance of the officer showing up as they would most likely only have one case on that date. .

The courts don't care which JP is "sitting" for court. They schedule as per officer availability/schedule (courts also have each officer's booked vacation dates to avoid)

That may be true if a motion is filed in advance, but when one is asked for in court and the JP decides to give an adjournment (after telling you that you should have given proper notice) he asks the court reporter what his next trial date is, and it is set for that one or the next one if the reporter says, "you have xx cases on that day and there is no room". The cop is sitting there and no one asks him/her whether it is a good date for them or whether this is their "special" day where all their cases are heard.

Not here they don't. Only thing they do is book on a mutual agreed date with the accused. Jp's schedule has no bearing and is not mentioned at all.

Prosecutor just stand and says this is the next date and JP grants it..

OPS

fredfred wrote:

That may be true if a motion is filed in advance, but when one is asked for in court and the JP decides to give an adjournment (after telling you that you should have given proper notice) he asks the court reporter what his next trial date is, and it is set for that one or the next one if the reporter says, "you have xx cases on that day and there is no room". The cop is sitting there and no one asks him/her whether it is a good date for them or whether this is their "special" day where all their cases are heard.

That depends on whether it's already scheduled for trial and if it's being put over, preemptive on one side or the other, to proceed regardless of what happens at the next trial date. That rarely happens. Usually you will not have a date set until you get disclosure, so your next date will be for the matter to be spoken to (i.e. elect trial or plea) and they won't bring the officer back for that date. On the date it's spoke to, they will usually pick a date that the officer there for a bunch of matters. That's the way it usually happens.

diehard wrote:

Can OP ask JP to quash the case?

Or is a motion also needed for that?

Just asking for it to be quashed is a motion for dismissal. What I was referring to is that they usually want a written submission (factum) prepared on the issue before they grant a motion for dismissal on insufficient disclosure. That's where you get to set out your argument and support it with case law and the crown gets to present theirs. You could just ask in court, but I think they'd want to hear some more arguments if your reason is insufficient disclosure.

Ok so my trial is this wednesday at approx 1 30. A question i had was if the cop doesn't show up and i ask for it to be dismissed but the jp instead adjourns it.Is that possible. When i am about to enter a plea isnt the cop suppose to be present ?

The officer doesn't have to be present for your plea. If he's not there, the crown can and probably will ask for it to be adjourned.

Simon Borys wrote:

If he's not there, the crown can and probably will ask for it to be adjourned.

That is, unless it's in much of the GTA, or, sometimes, Ottawa, in which case they'll usually withdraw (unless it's serious). Otherwise, yes...

ok so just to confirm one thing before my trial... When i get called up i will say "Your honor, i would like this case to be dismissed on the grounds of improper disclosure" right? But the thing is if i did do and i instead get an adjourment but the officer is not even there which will benefit the prosecution. Could i ask for the case to be dismissed after i enter the not guilty plea?

Simon Borys wrote:

fredfred wrote:

That may be true if a motion is filed in advance, but when one is asked for in court and the JP decides to give an adjournment (after telling you that you should have given proper notice) he asks the court reporter what his next trial date is, and it is set for that one or the next one if the reporter says, "you have xx cases on that day and there is no room". The cop is sitting there and no one asks him/her whether it is a good date for them or whether this is their "special" day where all their cases are heard.

That depends on whether it's already scheduled for trial and if it's being put over, preemptive on one side or the other, to proceed regardless of what happens at the next trial date. That rarely happens. Usually you will not have a date set until you get disclosure, so your next date will be for the matter to be spoken to (i.e. elect trial or plea) and they won't bring the officer back for that date. On the date it's spoke to, they will usually pick a date that the officer there for a bunch of matters. That's the way it usually happens.

I was given a choice by the JP to come back in a couple of weeks and set a date or set a new trial date then and there. I chose the latter. My point was that the original trial date seems to be set so that the officer has multiple cases on that day meaning they are pretty well guaranteed to show up. The adjournment date, on the other hand, is not picked so as to be convenient for the officer and will probably be his/her only case on that day. That makes the chance of them attending lower. They may like to attend court, but their superior may decide it's not a cost effective way to use resources.

Guess it depends on how serious the charge is...

how serious of a charge is speeding 33 over?

bilal388 wrote:

how serious of a charge is speeding 33 over?

Mine was 35 over... adjournment got the total delay to 13 weeks and I filed a 11b which got it stayed...

hmm hope to get the same thing if not the outright stay cause that will make the trial date juts about 12 months from the offence date......ill keep you guys posted of what happens

Hey just wondering my brother got a ticket for careless driving,driving with no license and he filed it at the markham court house and he still hasnt heard from them about a court date..He filed it before i did so that makes it about 8 months without even getting a date...should he call them and ask them or should he just let it stay like that?

fredfred wrote:

bilal388 wrote:

how serious of a charge is speeding 33 over?

Mine was 35 over... adjournment got the total delay to 13 weeks and I filed a 11b which got it stayed...

Oops...meant 13 months not 13 weeks.....

ok so i went to ..ill recap for u guys what happened

I reach there about at 110 wait for the line to clear up and check in with the prosecutor where she pleads me to take a deal. I told her straight up that i will not take any deal of any kind and just went and sat inside the court.Also the prosecutor(lady) was a complete bi***. Shes like all we had to do is prove u were going 51 and you lose i am like its ok ill go to trial. Then when i am sitting inside again she comes to me and pulls me outside.Then shes says the same bs all over again by this time the officer was present. I told her straight up that im going to ask for a dismissal because you did not provide me with proper disclosure. Shes like what are you talking about. Itold i cant read these notes because they are written like a chicken writes(not like that but she got the point). At this point she was being a total bi*** about it. She tells me that I AM NOT ENTITLED TO ANYTHING MORE THAN WHAT I GOT.shes like U WILL NOT BE GIVEN TYPED NOTES.then shes like you can go with the officer in the corner and he will read you what happened. At this time im like wtf is this. So i told the officer that you theres no point of you telling me this so i didnt listen to it and sat inside. Now for some reason most of the people in the court there officer wasnt even present and they got away with it. My officer by the looks of it wanted to extra money thats why he was there. Nevertheless i got called up gave my name etc. Then i told the jp that im asking for a dismissal he denied that and talked to the officer. Officer is like hes asking for a typed copy of the notes,make model ,procedure etc. The officer is like i am ok with that but the prosecutor is not. So the Jp's like we will adjourn this to another date. Now the first date the other lady said was Jan 31 but luckily nothing was free until like March(i also told them i cant do feb first week because of midterms) so they fit me inside a 66 line day on March 28 even though the other lady was like there are already so many people there but ya. Then the officer is like i will type them up and give you a call and like we have your information. Then the case was finished. So my question is

How should i go about receiving that typed version of the notes?He said they will contact me but just to be sure should i ask them or something? And also March 28 will make it about 10 months and 2 weeks since i got the ticket how is that if i file for 11b?

Thanks