Ontariohighwaytrafficact.com

This is a great and very informative site! Here's my particular scenario: I was in a group of cars coming over the crest of a hill on the 400 near Inisfill. I don't think I was the fastest vehicle. I saw the OPP cruiser immediately and, like everyone else, slowed down. My passenger chastised me for going over 120. The cruiser starts up or at least goes into drive and enters the highway. I was in the center lane and had moved to the slow or right lane. The vehicle on my left and right did the same. The cruisers lights go on and I am expecting that he is going to pull over someone else, however when he doesn't go around me, I pull over. He says, you were going a little fast and takes my license. After awhile he comes back with a ticket for 144 in a 100 zone. My passenger and I were completely shocked!

The ticket has Lidar written on it and seems to have all the relevant info.

I have read quite a lot of the info on this site and on FYST, so I know about disclosure, LIDAR issues, etc.

Therefore, I have some questions: When do you start counting the 15 days to plead not guilty? And do holidays and weekends count. The ticket is from July 23, 2013.

What is the likelihood I will be given a plea bargain and reduction?

Are paralegals worth the money?

Thanks

I believe the 15 days start the day after service and include holidays and weekends unless the 15 days expires on a holiday or weekend day. If that is the case, then the next day is the expiration day.

The likelihood of a plea bargain depends on a number of things, including whether the officer reduced the charge at roadside, your prior driving convictions, etc..

Thanks for the quick reply, Decatur.

So that would mean I have to get the reply to them by August 7.

There was no roadside deduction.

My driving record is pretty clean. Maybe 5 tickets in 40 years.

What about hiring one of those paralegal services?

If I indicate that I'm going to fight it in court and then get disclosure and decide its not worth it, can I pay the original fine without having to go to court?

I'm not a big fan of a paralegal services for things which you may do just as easily yourself. It all depends on how much time you can spare if you want to fight the ticket.

You can always pay the original fine at any time up to the point of trial.

It can never hurt to get disclosure and see if the prosecutor will take a deal. All it costs is your time.

Hi, something similar happened to me. Got nailed 40 over and in shock as well. Going to fight it myself.

All the paralegals I called tell me upfront that a win is reducing the fine WTF I can do that myself just by stepping foot in court.

My question is: where on the ticket said LIDAR? My ticket doesn't say what he used. I know he was pointing at me cause I saw him aiming (he was stationed in a ditch). I was hoping to know once I asked for disclosure.

salem2210 wrote:

HMy question is: where on the ticket said LIDAR? My ticket doesn't say what he used. I know he was pointing at me cause I saw him aiming (he was stationed in a ditch). I was hoping to know once I asked for disclosure.

How the officer determined your speed isn't listed on the ticket. You need to request disclosure to find out.

I received my trial notice and am about to send my disclosure request. Would it be a good idea to ask for GPS coordinates and a description of the terrain where the alleged offense took place and where he pulled me over. The group of cars I was in was coming over a hill. Then, I lost sight of the cruiser in my rear view mirror, because there was another hill and he had to get on the road and catch up. Where I was pulled over was some distance from where the cruiser was parked.

On my ticket it clearly says LIDAR at the top.

TheForce wrote:

I received my trial notice and am about to send my disclosure request. Would it be a good idea to ask for GPS coordinates and a description of the terrain where the alleged offense took place and where he pulled me over. The group of cars I was in was coming over a hill. Then, I lost sight of the cruiser in my rear view mirror, because there was another hill and he had to get on the road and catch up. Where I was pulled over was some distance from where the cruiser was parked.

GPS coordinates and a description of the terrain are not essential elements for the prosecution to get a conviction for a speeding offense in Ontario.

The prosecution will only give you the notes the officers wrote shortly after his encounter with you. If you do request for the additional items, the prosecution may force you to explain their relevance in front of a JP before giving it you (if they have it).

No one can stop you from asking the officer these questions during cross-examination, but he'll most likely say IDK for the GPS and maybe describe the terrain.

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com ... tml#p29755

Passing Thru wrote:

You can not testify to what someone else saw. In addition to that I have won many cases where I have lost sight of a vehicle before stopping it. There are many ways to qualify to the court that the vehicle is the same one.

Thanks for the reply iFly55. I'll keep the GPS and terrain for cross examination or second disclosure request. It may not be necessary for the crown's case, but, until I at least see the officer's notes, it's crucial to my defense. Unless LIDAR can bend over hills, or there was someone else tracking the car, the way in which the the officer obtained the reading defies physics. He would have had to sweep very quickly between at least 3 vehicles in a very short distance. I honestly think he made a mistake.

TheForce: When is your court date? I just requested disclosure. Mine is on Feb 4th.

Court date is Jan. 8, 2014. Requested disclosure on Oct. 29, 2013. Sent express post requiring a signature upon receipt. Tracked the request, it was signed for on Oct. 31, 2013. Have tried to follow up on phone today -- no one in office, so I left a message. I have so far recieved nothing. Emailed a second request today Jan. 2 2014. Any thoughts?

I have read that if you don't receive disclosure you can requested adjournment.

When the JP asks for your defense say you can't make one because you never received your disclosure and thus you were unable to formulate a defense against the charge. Thus you request to have this trial adjourned until the prosecution is able to provide adequate disclosure.

However, this will cancel your chance for an 11b.

They might try to give you disclosure the day of the trial. Don't agree to go to trial like that cause you have to review disclosure and think your options through.

Please let me know how does the trial go. Best of luck

salem2210 wrote:

I have read that if you don't receive disclosure you can requested adjournment.

When the JP asks for your defense say you can't make one because you never received your disclosure and thus you were unable to formulate a defense against the charge. Thus you request to have this trial adjourned until the prosecution is able to provide adequate disclosure.

However, this will cancel your chance for an 11b.

How will that cancel the chance at an 11b? The delay is because of the crown. The disclosure request was submitted more than 6 weeks before the trial.

Check this link http://forums.redflagdeals.com/archive/ ... 96266.html

Requesting an adjournment because the Crown failed to provide disclosure which you requested in a timely fashion does NOT count against you.

salem2210 wrote:

Check this link http://forums.redflagdeals.com/archive/ ... 96266.html

As stated in your link:

Anytime you ask for an adjournment for a reason that is NOT the fault of the Crown or the administration of the courts, that time counts AGAINST you in calculating delay for the purposes of s. 11(b) of the Charter.

If you ask for an adjournment because the Crown didn't give you disclosure, that counts against the Crown, not you.

If you ask for an adjournment because you want more time to prepare your defence, and you've had disclosure for months, then the delay counts against you.

Thanks for all the help. I was wondering if I should show up with any case law, to bolster my request for dismissal due to missing, inadequate, or in-timely disclosure?

TheForce wrote:

Thanks for all the help. I was wondering if I should show up with any case law, to bolster my request for dismissal due to missing, inadequate, or in-timely disclosure?

You are not looking for a dismissal of the charge. You are simply looking for an adjourment. You can just say that your requesting an adjournment in order to give the crown time to provide disclosure. It is a good idea to talk to the crown before hand and let them know this is what you will be requesting.

So the prosecutors office finally sent disclosure at 9:17, today Tuesday, January 07, 2014– a day before my scheduled trail. It is, not surprisingly, incomplete. The time stamp indicates they have had it since Nov. 1/2013. It also says it was disclosed on Dec. 11/13 and, despite having my email address since Nov.1, it was only sent today. Is it unreasonable to suggest that this is unfair and infringes upon my right to prepare a defense, just because of the inordinate amount of time it took them to release or send disclosure?

I only received one side of the ticket, the officer's notes (not type written as requested, or explained) and 5 pages of the Lidar manual

Should I email my concerns to the prosecutor's office in regards to untimely and inadequate disclosure or wait til court tomorrow?

Heres the page of the officers notes that relates to my charge:

The first line I cant figure out what the numbers refer too.

Lp.dl R2200 40776 ?0626 ????

The next line indicates the Lidar unit?

OPP Lidar ??-???? Atlanta

The next to lines are testing times?

T????? ?? 0510 23Jul13

T????? ?? 1635 23Jul13

The last one is his qualifications?

Qual 24 Oct 06 / 17Jul13

The I observed vel in L1 passing vel

L2p high rate of speed. Rds dry, ???

light, visibility good. Visual

continuity maintained.

Then Provincial offenses number and relevant highway traffic section.

O650 SB 400Sb & Mapl???? Is this location of offense?

0707 Velstop 400 NB s of Map?????

Im trying decipher the times here. Did it take 17 minutes to catch up to me? And what about the 0627 time?

Here are the parts I find troubling:

- I was not in Lane 1, I was in the middle lane which I assume is Lane 2.

- He was not able to maintain visual contact because of the hill all three vehicles went over.

- All three had pulled into the slow lane by the time he caught up

- There are no distances or readings for Lidar

Further thoughts: these notes seem like they were written after, perhaps well after the event. How else could the test at the end of the shift be inserted before the time of offense. Is it common or typical practice to note your qualifications in your notes. Time on ticket is 0707.

I was hoping a moderator or administrator would respond to the uploaded disclosure files. I go into court in @ 5 hours.

If the officer is not there ask for adjournment due to the fact that you received such late disclosure. What you want to stress is that you feel it is the fault of the crown.

So here's my afternoon in court.

Got to court early.

The police officer arrived there soon after.

Spoke to prosecutor:

She said, are you looking for a deal?

I said, I'm open to suggestions.

She wrote down 120 in 100. $90 (plus cost and surcharge $115) 3 points (instead of $329 and 4 points)

That was a lot better than I was expecting, but I asked if could I speak to the officer before accepting that deal

She said yes.

I had to wait a bit, spoke to officer, who was very cordial and professional and it was discovered that the prosecutions office had sent the wrong pages of his notes in my disclosure package. In actuality, I wasn't given the most important page. He went through it with me and it was all there, distances readings, etc. He was extremely well organized -- even had his pages numbered!

I thanked him and realized that I probably could have asked for an adjournment, but I already spent a lot of time and suffered angst over this and still felt a little unprepared.

The best part is that it seemed fair and was definitely a slower speed than I was actually going.

There were quite a few similar reductions offered and accepted. There were some withdrawals, usually to those who had paralegals or lawyers representing them.

Moral of the story: it definitely pays to request a court date and show up.

(oh and OPP officers will show up)