Ontariohighwaytrafficact.com

I was passing a vehicle that was going slow for me and there was an oncoming vehicle coming at me. I speed up to get around the person I was passing and the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop who turns around and tickets me for going 110km in a 80km zone. How does it work with passing a vehicle? Once I passed the vehicle I went back down to my original speed of just under 100. The officer stated that I was doing 130km in a very disrespectful tone so I explained that I didnt take my eyes off the road to see my speed as there was a vehicle coming at me and one beside me that I was passing as that would not be safe. He said he reduced my ticket to 110km in an 80km but the ticket does not have the "r" code on it or anything. Am I not allowed to exeed the speed limit when passing? what should I do?

There is no speed limit exemption for passing. If the pass cannot be made in safety, you should slow down and go back behind the other car.

So should I just pay the ticket or can I get it reduced? I lose points for this as well can I save them some how?

Squishy wrote:

If the pass cannot be made in safety, you should slow down and go back behind the other car.

That's a knee-slapper! LMAO (wipes tear from eye). Yep, your gonna make a perfect cop

As absolutely ridiculous as it may sound, Squishy is right. There is no allowance for passing. Personally, I would take a speeding ticket and pass in safety ANY DAY over slowing down and trying to merge back in line (much more dangerous as the guy behind you probably filled your spot right quick). I have pulled out to pass a transport truck only to find he was tailgating a surprise car in front of him. You want to see SPEEDING!?

Did the cop actually see you passing? ... and STILL gave you a ticket?? Wow!

I would be so offended by this charge I would do everything in my power to drag the thing out as long as possible. I would file a not-guilty, submit an application for Disclosure, and seek as many continuances as the court will allow. When it eventually came to trial, I would have a list of technical questions a mile long for that cop.

Or maybe I'd calm down after a day or two and just accept a plea bargain from the crown to Disobey Sign (if you have a clean record).

The cop was the oncoming traffic. So yes he seen me pass. I have aclean record so how do I proceed?

You basically have two options: plead or fight. Like Bookm suggests, you can try going to a first attendance meeting and negotiating a lower charge. You should be able to get this one down to 15km/h or less and avoid demerit points.

If that fails, then mount your defence. Request disclosure and prepare for battle.

One warning though. Do not state what you have posted here to the prosecutor at first attendance or at trial in front of the justice. It will get you convicted quick!

The charge is bull and there are too many overzealous cops that will nail you for it. Depending on my time/financial resources, I'd either fight it myself or hire a paralegal. While a single conviction on an otherwise clean record won't affect your rates with most insurers, if you get nailed with anything over the next 3 years (and that includes 1km/h over the limit), your rates will go up 15% or so.

By fighting the ticket all the way (reductions don't matter unless your job depends on having 0 demerits) you also clog up the system and make speed limit enforcement less profitable for the system.

Bookm wrote:

That's a knee-slapper! LMAO (wipes tear from eye). Yep, your gonna make a perfect cop

Hey, wanna be my reference? I'll be a shoe-in with endorsement from a celebrity.

That really blows to get charged with that.

here is a tip although your still breaking the law.

Lets say next time there is a slow truck in the middle or you want to get away from someone and need to exceed the limit to pass do this.

Go into the left lane and immediately put your right turn signal on. That way even if an officer sees you your making it very obvious your just trying to pass something.

Although i mean depending on where you are when you see an officer you should just slow down and not try anything border line. Even if its right it isnt worth the stop, hassle, and the ticket. He must have been pretty close to see it so check your rear view mirror more next time.

This really blows an officer would do this. Many times i have been in the middle lane and they are going under the speed limit or you may have an aggressive truck behind you and wish to get away.

The problem is then you get in the left lane which is flowing around 130.

So what do you do?

The second you go into the left lane people will be flashing their high beams tailgating you.

What works best for me is enter the left lane without cutting anyone else off. Then AS SOON as you get in the left lane put on your right blinkers. This is a good way to avoid a ticket.

It will also help curb some road rage because the drivers in the left lane you are now infront of will see your right blinker and will know your not trying to piss them off, hog the left lane, or trying to slow them down.

I find this works really well to not piss off others and at the same time you might avoid a ticket if an officer was watching, as your turn signal would be an indication of your desire to only exceed the limit to pass.

Squishy great idea, some of that beef Jerky and the approval from Bookm and your on your way!

Bookm wrote:

Did the cop actually see you passing? ... and STILL gave you a ticket?? Wow!

Actually, that is super evidence for notes. Obtain the slower vehicle speed and the passing vehicle's speed, confirms observations a lot easier than a solo vehicle as now have a physical comparison in the same plain (directly side by side).

Do you really think the oncoming vehicle (the officer) was able to get the speed of the passed vehicle AND the passing vehicle throughout the entirety of this scenario... with moving radar?? Sure it's possible, but unlikely. I'd love to put this cop on the stand:

ME: Officer, prior to me overtaking the vehicle, what was it's precise speed?

COP: Not sure. I believe right on the speed limit.

ME: Was this determined by visual estimate?

COP: No, Radar.

ME: What was your visual estimate?

COP: I didn't estimate. Was too far away.

ME: Radar does not necessarily record the closest target, correct?

COP: Ya, I 'spose.

ME: Then you can't say with a legal degree of certainty that the radar reading was for the car I passed, correct?

COP: ......................................... Naw.

ME: When I passed, you're radar device recorded the speed of my car, correct?

COP: Yes.

ME: What was the speed of the car I was passing at THAT time.

COP: Don't know, radar only monitors one car at a time and YOU were clearly the faster car.

ME: Can you say for certain that the car I was passing did NOT speed up at all while being overtaken?

COP: No.

ME: Is it not quite possible that the overtaken car breached section 148 (7) of the HTA and did not assist me in re-entering the right lane upon your approach in the opposite direction?

COP: It's possible.

ME: In fact, it's quite possible the overtaken vehicle actually accelerated, hindering my re-entry, correct?

COP (now sobbing, lol): It's possible.

That's all.

Closing Argument:

Speeding is usually considered an absolute liability offence which means it would only be incumbent on the crown to prove the act of speeding took place. But speeding CAN be considered a strict liability offence when it is done for safety reasons. When an overtaken vehicle does not assist the passing vehicle when faced with an approaching vehicle, it would be considered due diligence to accelerate and re-enter the right lane in a safe manner. Since the crown has presented no evidence that the defendant was not in any peril, I ask that the charge be dismissed.

... Or something like that

148. (1)

(7) Where one vehicle is met or overtaken by another, if by reason of the weight of the load on either of the vehicles so meeting or on the vehicle so overtaken the driver finds it impracticable to turn out, he or she shall immediately stop, and, if necessary for the safety of the other vehicle and if required so to do, he or she shall assist the person in charge thereof to pass without damage. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 148 (7).

Hold on, s. 148 (7) is only for vehicles unable to turn out. I don't think it would apply in this case unless the vehicle left you less than one half of the roadway free. And if it did apply, then that means if you feel the vehicle overtaking you cannot do it in safety, you must "immediately stop" - not even an option to slow down.

I think you're looking for your beloved s. 172

8. Driving a motor vehicle without due care and attention, without reasonable consideration for other persons using the highway or in a manner that may endanger any person by,

i. driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to prevent another vehicle from passing,

Otherwise, nice defence. I especially enjoyed where you made him cry.

Ya, that'll work too.

Bookm wrote:

ME: Officer, prior to me overtaking the vehicle, what was it's precise speed?

COP: Not sure. I believe right on the speed limit.

ME: Was this determined by visual estimate?

COP: No, Radar.

ME: What was your visual estimate?

COP: I didn't estimate. Was too far away.

ME: Radar does not necessarily record the closest target, correct?

COP: Ya, I 'spose.

ME: Then you can't say with a legal degree of certainty that the radar reading was for the car I passed, correct?

COP: ......................................... Naw.

ME: When I passed, you're radar device recorded the speed of my car, correct?

COP: Yes.

ME: What was the speed of the car I was passing at THAT time.

COP: Don't know, radar only monitors one car at a time and YOU were clearly the faster car.

ME: Can you say for certain that the car I was passing did NOT speed up at all while being overtaken?

COP: No.

ME: Is it not quite possible that the overtaken car breached section 148 (7) of the HTA and did not assist me in re-entering the right lane upon your approach in the opposite direction?

COP: It's possible.

ME: In fact, it's quite possible the overtaken vehicle actually accelerated, hindering my re-entry, correct?

COP (now sobbing, lol): It's possible.

I love people that have absolutely NO clue on radar and how it works....thanks for that clarification!

Ouch! (It was the "sobbing" comment, wasn't it)

Bookm wrote:

Ouch! (It was the "sobbing" comment, wasn't it)

well I gotta have fun at "ME".....you had fun with "COP" ....so it's not as big of an ouch as one might think more of a "prick"

hwybear wrote:

Bookm wrote:

Ouch! (It was the "sobbing" comment, wasn't it)

well I gotta have fun at "ME".....you had fun with "COP" ....so it's not as big of an ouch as one might think more of a "prick"

Now a moderator and being a "prick".....

<<<<<<<<<<<<

Next thing you know all posts except for 'bears will be gone.......

edit: where did that sentence in the middle go???? Bear stop it.

Hahahahahahaha

Well bookm in response to your post.

Now let's say this is a 2 lane highway and you guys are the only 2 cars plus the officer.

In that case he would check the speed of both vehicles. Sure it may not " be vehicle specific: and he can not be 100 % sure its you but what he can do is check the speed of your vehicle (faster one) and the speed of the vehicle you are passing (slower one).

This would be possible with Genesis 2 or the Stalker i beleive. He can do this in motion. He could definitely get both vehicles speed by being directly behind them.

While this guys ticket was very un lucky and perhaps a not so nice officer he can definitely get that.

Now if this was a 3 lane highway with lots of traffic and he was on the side of the road that may be different.

But when they get you for speeding while they are moving that is always radar and they would have to be in front of behind of your car.

I am not 100 % sure but after reading lots upon radar/lidar in the past this seems to be.

Radar is not vehicle specific but i dont think it is like that. It sure as hell isnt as good as lidar where they target your car and get a exact reading.

Here is a youtube video of a office using a radar unit.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V12C2n7M08[/youtube]

Watch when he is on the highway. If this is the case i put no faith into it.

Maybee where hwybear patrols in Chatam where it is only 2 lanes and light traffic.

But in and around toronto this is unfair.

I mean lets say you have a group of multiple cars on the road. They are all exceeding the speed limit and getting to close. This is common in the GTA. Youll have cars racing up 130-140 only to get stopped by someone slower in the left lane.

Now when the road is packed with all cars slowing down, speeding up, changing speeds, changing lanes how does a unit like this work?

I mean if you have a bunchof cars doing this how can he be sure at that exact time it was your vehicle going that speed. He might think you are faster cause you accelerated but the radar unit got the guy who has now speed up for example.

My post is a bit confusing on this unit but in some situations i dont get how this would work and the court would not have any argument to how it works.

This is not lidar. Secondly back the post topic from the sounds it was on a smaller 2 lane highway in an off peak time and the officer was behind them using on moving radar. He watched the whole thing and got the speed of the faster vehicle (guy who passed) and charged him with speeding.

From what i understand Radar can be moving (installed) and hand held. Lidar is always hand held.

It is my best guess if the officer is facing the same direction of traffic on the side of the road he is using one of those built in units. For lidar he is facing you. And if they feel like it they can drive and check your speed at the same time.

From what i understand a Radar/Lidar unit sends out small pulses of light or radio waves in the case of radar and it calculates the time it takes them to get back or the difference in the time it gets them to take back.

That is why with radar you can detect it and the officer can get info on the side of the road such as fastest vehicle for example. Although with lidar since it is sending out small pulses of light it has to be vehicle specific.

I find with lidar they are facing the front of your vehicle aiming the laser at your front plate. With radar in the GTA they always seem to hide under a bridge etc and face the same way you are and check your speed one you pass by them (radar i assume).

I am guessing with heavy traffic radar is the choice while in lighter traffic and off peak times laser is more useable?

I am not sure on all of this. There is another thread where hwybear responded to some of my questions about radar/lidar that was very good.

Although with most police officers it is my guess if they are not sure its you then they are not going to charge you with speeding. You need to remember they are trained to use these units and have experience, practice, and education using them.

Sorry that post was a bit long.

I watched this video again it's very good.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V12C2n7M08[/youtube]

So my question to hwybear is lets say this was 3 lanes and the cars were all travelling really fast between eachother. I mean a lets say they are all going 125-130. It looks like its hard to tell exactly who is the one.

So does the officer take that reading or speed up and watch him?

Where the cars pass fast in groups i have no idea how you could use laser....

I mean obviously if you have some nut bar weaving across all the lanes going 175 and everyone else is less than 130 you have your culprit but when they are going similar speed (Speeding together in a group) i dont know how they can tell EXACTLY who the culprit was.

I wonder how the hell they do it on hwy 400 when everyone is flying by speeding way over the limit. Pick the ones that stick out like a sore thumb going well over 50?

I realize i am going into exact detail perhaps over analyzing it but i wonder how officers do speed enforcement on busy 3/4 lane highways (one direction) with a concrete median and they are flying by in groups close together exceeding the limit.

Lidar is easy no matter how many lanes or volume of traffic. Only trick in heavy traffic is getting to the offending vehicle.

The video is a Kustom Signals Golden Eagle, which I have not used for 10yrs or so. I can not remember the functions/capabilities of that particular unit. I have also never patrolled on hwys with more than 2 lanes in either direction other than a handful of times.

So having said that stationary radar in that video appears very difficult and looking at that video I would not have confidence in correct speed to vehicle matching (due to lack of my experience in that type of traffic and the old radar I have not used in yrs). I would much rather be moving and let the traffic catch me.

tdrive2 wrote:

..He could definitely get both vehicles speed by being directly behind them.

The cop wasn't following behind. He was coming in the opposite direction.

jorge wrote:

...the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop...

It would depend on which radar unit the officer had and what mode it was in

Correct me if I'm wrong but newer units have a "fastest" speed mode where it will display the fastest reading.....

However if the unit reads and displays all speeds and there was more then 2 cars on the road the information would then be null and void........

Thanks bear i totally agree with what you just said.

Reflections your right on I beleive the Decatuer Genesis 2 has that or its the stalker i dont remember. I think its the genesis 2 i have seen alot of those in OPP cars.

If you wanna see some new OPP vics if you look up the mississauga detachment off the QEW there is a tim hortons literally 1 km before the highway.

THERE IS ALWAYS OPP in that parking lot. One time the guy was quite nice i was just asking him some general questions. go take a look at the cars i don't remember what radar unit he had but they definately do have that option.

Hwybear here is my question with lidar. Where you patrol and it is 2 lanes i agree lidar would work. However let's say your on the QEW at like 9 am and everyone is flying past you going between 130-110 which is very common here with no accidents or construction.

The cars ride so close and everyone is in a rush for work. 3 lanes can't handle traffic anymore here. So there is to much room for error with radar to be sure and then it would be dangerous for the patrol officer to get up to the car.

But how would he use lidar. The cars would be travelling so close together if he was on the shoulder as soon as he aimed for a license plate a car in the 2 right most lanes would get in the way.

I know lidar is fast as hell (speed of light) but it must be hard to pick a target and get a reading in a situation like this.

Now mind you sure you could have an officer on a over pass doing this with a lidar unit and have 2 cars waiting underneath but in the GTA this would be crazy. It would cause everyone to slam on the breaks and freak out when they saw 2 marked cars on the side of the road.

As to that video doing enforcement like that. If that was you bear in that car on the side of the road, what kind of unit radar/lidar would you use and how would you be sure you had the right target when they all fly by fast in a group? (just asking for info not to be a smart ass )

Hey bookm sorry i didnt see your post.

In that way the officer got a reading coming the opposite direction????

Here is the problem how could he then check the speed of both your vehicles driving in the opposite way and not be sure he had the one that was driving infront of him?

Was there a lot of traffic when this happened?

Bookm it is very possible he could have got a reading on the passing one. Especially if this was like where hwybear patrols with 2 lanes, light traffic, and a median he could easily turn around at to get at him. Although it depends on how much traffic there was and he had to be sure of the vehicle infront.

Although i hope this guy if he goes to court thinks about some of this kind of stuff. Start questioning the reliability of the radar unit, to be sure he had you, etc, the officers training for the unit, etc...

Reflections wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but newer units have a "fastest" speed mode where it will display the fastest reading.....

However if the unit reads and displays all speeds and there was more then 2 cars on the road the information would then be null and void........

Yes, newer units have the "fast" mode.

Readings do not become null and void with more than 2 vehicles on the road

Bookm wrote:

tdrive2 wrote:

..He could definitely get both vehicles speed by being directly behind them.

The cop wasn't following behind. He was coming in the opposite direction.

jorge wrote:

...the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop...

Can obtain speeds on both oncoming vehicles

tdrive2 wrote:

However let's say your on the QEW at like 9 am and everyone is flying past you going between 130-110 which is very common here with no accidents or construction.

The cars ride so close and everyone is in a rush for work. 3 lanes can't handle traffic anymore here. So there is to much room for error with radar to be sure and then it would be dangerous for the patrol officer to get up to the car.

But how would he use lidar. The cars would be travelling so close together if he was on the shoulder as soon as he aimed for a license plate a car in the 2 right most lanes would get in the way.

Tdrive2 can you rephrase that or clarify....you are talking of lidar and radar....don't want to misunderstand.

As to that video doing enforcement like that. If that was you bear in that car on the side of the road, what kind of unit radar/lidar would you use and how would you be sure you had the right target when they all fly by fast in a group? (just asking for info not to be a smart ass )

video: I'm guessing the officer is behind a bridge, using front antenna and tracking on rear of vehicles. Danger of this is trying to pull out from behind a bridge to even get going. I would not recommend this for speed enforcement purposes.....rather a way to check who has a "radar detector" which could be what is happening here, although there is usually high activations of radar for that.

I personally would find a more suitable location (for my safe merging) and use lidar only.

Readings do not become null and void with more than 2 vehicles on the road

2 vehicles 2 speeds the results are obvious............3 vehicles 3 speeds which one goes where??