Ontariohighwaytrafficact.com

I was stopped by a officer who claims I was doing 72km/h in a 50km/h zone. I was travelling Southbound on Dougall Ave. in Windsor, ON. In the Southbound lane there is a sign posted that says 50 km/h probably a few hundred metres away from the intersection he clocked my speed at. Just so you really understand after the 50km/h it turns into an 80km/h then merges into the 401. (Literally when I stopped the vehicle I was 10 ft. away from an 80km/h sign).

The Northbound lane of this street at the same intersection is a 60km/h zone. There is a posted 60km/h sign in the Northbound lane 200 metres before the intersection. This sign is not posted on the Southbound lane.

Basically if I would have been driving in the opposite direction I would have only been doing 12km/h instead of 22km/h over the speed limit. Is this a valid argument in court? There were no special circumstances at the time (ex. construction, special events, etc.)

Today is my appointment to meet with the prosecutor i'm going to tell him exactly what happened hopefully he can drop the ticket. Please let me know what anyone thinks or if I can get away from this. This officer was hiding out in a side street where speed limits increase so he obviously was out to get someone.

We have covered this before....let me see if i can find the post.... in the meantime, take pictures and explain it to the crown, i believe they will drop to 12 over at the least.

I just was reading the OHTA and found this:

Variable speed limits

128.0.1 (1) The Minister may designate any highway or portion of a highway where variable maximum rates of speed may be set in accordance with this section. 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 18.

Same

(2) An official of the Ministry authorized by the Minister in writing may, from time to time, set a maximum rate of speed for a highway or portion of a highway designated under subsection (1) or for each lane, direction of travel or class or type of motor vehicle on a highway or portion of a highway designated under subsection (1). 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 18.

**Does this mean my argument how can there be two different speed limits in each direction becomes invalid?

gabe wrote:

I just was reading the OHTA and found this:

Variable speed limits

128.0.1 (1) The Minister may designate any highway or portion of a highway where variable maximum rates of speed may be set in accordance with this section. 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 18.

Same

(2) An official of the Ministry authorized by the Minister in writing may, from time to time, set a maximum rate of speed for a highway or portion of a highway designated under subsection (1) or for each lane, direction of travel or class or type of motor vehicle on a highway or portion of a highway designated under subsection (1). 2005, c. 26, Sched. A, s. 18.

**Does this mean my argument how can there be two different speed limits in each direction becomes invalid?

Nope, they would have to give you a reason for doing so. Have you every been on any real road where the speed limit travelling in the opposite direction is different from yours.... if so name the reason.

What some officers do in Windsor is just plain wrong.You have just been introduced to one of the many fishing holes set up by our wonderful city,the speed trap capital of Ontario as described in Windsor star article two weeks ago.It is a well known fact that they post varying speed limits on our roads for no reason.Without saying a word your ticket will be dropped to no points and like the criminal you are you will be rushed into the courtroom and expected to be thankful they dropped it.You will also notice that 90% of the stop lights are programed in such a way that you must speed a minimum of 15kph over the limit or you will catch every red light,this is how they get ya.Another well known factoid of our city is to put the speed limit sign 50 metres from the end of the road and have it marked artificially low then set up the trap at he mid way point so you don't see the sign(Chrysler Center).If you got busted by the grey haired cop that looks like Anderson Copper that's his specialty.

It's so bad here that as soon as you get out of city limits the difference is immediately noticeable.How we let them do this is amazing since there are numerous complaints sent into the news paper on a regular basis.Even one of our counselors has lodged formal complaints without response and when they did respond the supervisor had the gall to let them take a picture sitting on his desk with his arms crossed as he basically said to bad.His body language alone was enough to send the counselor into orbit.Guess what nothing ever did or will change.This counselor even drove around town filming the stop lights to prove it.I'm not making it up these are known facts around here.

Some light reading on Windsors speed traps and traffic lights (Dougall Ave complaint)

http://blogs.windsorstar.com/2011/08/31 ... of-canada/

http://www2.canada.com/windsorstar/news ... 26239f0c0c

matt123 wrote:

What some officers do in Windsor is just plain wrong.You have just been introduced to one of the many fishing holes set up by our wonderful city,the speed trap capital of Ontario as described in Windsor star article two weeks ago.It is a well known fact that they post varying speed limits on our roads for no reason.Without saying a word your ticket will be dropped to no points and like the criminal you are you will be rushed into the courtroom and expected to be thankful they dropped it.You will also notice that 90% of the stop lights are programed in such a way that you must speed a minimum of 15kph over the limit or you will catch every red light,this is how they get ya.Another well known factoid of our city is to put the speed limit sign 50 metres from the end of the road and have it marked artificially low then set up the trap at he mid way point so you don't see the sign(Chrysler Center).If you got busted by the grey haired cop that looks like Anderson Copper that's his specialty.

It's so bad here that as soon as you get out of city limits the difference is immediately noticeable.How we let them do this is amazing since there are numerous complaints sent into the news paper on a regular basis.Even one of our counselors has lodged formal complaints without response and when they did respond the supervisor had the gall to let them take a picture sitting on his desk with his arms crossed as he basically said to bad.His body language alone was enough to send the counselor into orbit.Guess what nothing ever did or will change.This counselor even drove around town filming the stop lights to prove it.I'm not making it up these are known facts around here.

Thanks for the links. So what should I do to prepare for court? Just bring a map with label where all the speed limit signs are showing exactly where I was pulled over?

I've created a Google Map using street view to locate the signs then marked them on the map. This link will bring you to show you the speed limit signs. Clicking on the markers will bring up what type of sign and what side of the road it was on.

http://www.google.com/maps/ms?msid=2159 ... 4026&msa=0

I was driving Northbound on Dougall when he caught me doing 72km/h at the Dougall and Darcy St. intersection.

I would wait for Reflections or someone else to get back to you as he/they surely know the drill better than me.I just wanted to point out how sneaky the system is in Windsor and how they commonly drop the charge the second you sit down with the prosecutor as many of my friends and myself have had the same ticket right down to the speed in the same type of situation.They sucker you in because they know you think it's a 60 they and can get you at 20 over since most drivers will push 10 over and think they will be ok.It's a money grab not a public safety issue and they seem to go by sheer volume.

The last time I went to talk to the prosecutor I barely noted that the last sign I saw was 60kph at the corner of Grand and Chrysler Center.The next thing I knew I was getting pulled over in a 50kph zone when every other street that intersects or runs parallel is a 60kph and the that the only 50km speed limit sign was 500m further down the road and 50m from Tecumseh where it ends.

I got nailed because in it's 50kph in an industrial zone unless posted otherwise and since it was posted at 60kph at the corner you think it's 60 and there are no other signs until it's to late.The beauty of it is that as soon as Chrysler Center crosses Tecumseh the name changes to Droullard and it's back to 60kph in a residential area.

I doubt you can win but I'm positive they will drop it to 15 over by just showing up.If you fight they will probably make the 22 over stick.Both are minors so insurance will see it the same It's the points that and fine that are different.

good luck

matt123 wrote:

I would wait for Reflections or someone else to get back to you as he/they surely know the drill better than me.I just wanted to point out how sneaky the system is in Windsor and how they commonly drop the charge the second you sit down with the prosecutor as many of my friends and myself have had the same ticket right down to the speed in the same type of situation.They sucker you in because they know you think it's a 60 they and can get you at 20 over since most drivers will push 10 over and think they will be ok.It's a money grab not a public safety issue and they seem to go by sheer volume.

The last time I went to talk to the prosecutor I barely noted that the last sign I saw was 60kph at the corner of Grand and Chrysler Center.The next thing I knew I was getting pulled over in a 50kph zone when every other street that intersects or runs parallel is a 60kph and the that the only 50km speed limit sign was 500m further down the road and 50m from Tecumseh where it ends.

I got nailed because in it's 50kph in an industrial zone unless posted otherwise and since it was posted at 60kph at the corner you think it's 60 and there are no other signs until it's to late.The beauty of it is that as soon as Chrysler Center crosses Tecumseh the name changes to Droullard and it's back to 60kph in a residential area.

I doubt you can win but I'm positive they will drop it to 15 over by just showing up.If you fight they will probably make the 22 over stick.Both are minors so insurance will see it the same It's the points that and fine that are different.

good luck

I could care less about the fine at this point. I'm willing to waste the time of all the people that work at the Provincial Offences Office just because it doesn't cost me more money to fight the ticket. I've literally thought about it and I can't think of any other street that has a different speed limit in opposite directions under regular conditions.

hopefully reflections can give me an idea about what exactly to go into the courtroom with to try to get the charge dropped. or at least a ticket for 12km/h over the limit.

You said it before, print off a map and mark the speed signs, try to show the direction of travel associated with the signs as well. There is no reason whatsoever that I can think of that would allow, say east bound traffic to travel faster then west bound traffic<< just an example.

Example #2. 4-series highways, the only time I see different speeds on opposite sides is if there is construction, other then that 100 on both sides. And if there is a point where the speed changes, faster in one direction slower in the other, then you can bet the signs are at the same point of the road directly opposite each other.

I don't see a problem getting it knocked down to 12kph over they seem to offer 15 and no points right off the bat here.Be sure to request a meeting with the prosecutor when you fill out the paperwork if you want to go that rout.If you can make a deal with him you will be sent into the courtroom right away to plead guilty to the lesser charge.I was just trying to say the only difference between 1 and 20 over is points and the fine,insurance looks at both as a minor conviction so going to court may very well be worth it to get the entire charge dropped.The difference is only about $50 your time and 3 points if I remember right.Points aren't a big deal unless you already have some against you or have a hybrid license.If you do I suggest you fight for them.It takes two years for them to come off you license.Also check out the Ticket Combat website if you get a chance.

matt123 wrote:

I don't see a problem getting it knocked down to 12kph over they seem to offer 15 and no points right off the bat here.Be sure to request a meeting with the prosecutor when you fill out the paperwork if you want to go that rout.If you can make a deal with him you will be sent into the courtroom right away to plead guilty to the lesser charge.I was just trying to say the only difference between 1 and 20 over is points and the fine,insurance looks at both as a minor conviction so going to court may very well be worth it to get the entire charge dropped.The difference is only about $50 your time and 3 points if I remember right.Points aren't a big deal unless you already have some against you or have a hybrid license.If you do I suggest you fight for them.It takes two years for them to come off you license.Also check out the Ticket Combat website if you get a chance.

btw thanks for hat ticket combat site. i already went to try to talk to the prosecutor a few days ago to tell him exactly the situation. the guy was a complete dick and basically told me he didn't want to her anything unless I was will to accept some type of offer. I think its complete BS that there can be two different speed limits in each direction, so i told him unless his offer is to drop the ticket i wanted to setup a court date. he gave me a copy of the officer that pulled me overs notes. it was typed out so i could read it but there were a lot of short forms in it. i'm going to type it out and if you cant decipher any of it i would appreciate it. also should I ask for any more disclosure? the copy of the notes is all i got.

"-clear/warm/dry/sunny"

"stat b.c.v at Darcy" (Darcy being the name of the street he was hiding on)

"-obs 4dr compact niss app s/b from intersection of Roseland"

"-veh continuous acceeration" (with spelling errors...lol)

"-#2, radar 68------>72x2"

"-stop m/w lone"

"-area prop posted 50"

"-stopped veh just north of posted 80km/h "begins" sign at Dougall pkway"

"********PC Ferrari issued same male pon for speed 92/60 in April '11

under this there is a showing of my 2 other convictions -unsafe move in windsor

-disobey legal sign

unsafe move was originally a careless driving given to me when i crashed my motorcycle into a guard rail on a 401 exit (no other vehicles involved)

disobey legal sign was originally a speeding 92km/h in a 60km/h originally noted on the officers notes.

i've already created a google map with the speed limit signs marked where they are in each direction also with the spot he wrote on the ticket he caught me Darcy at Dougall.

Was the 92/60 going northbound on the same road. Prosecutors typically won't be too excited to make a deal with a previous ticket for a similar offence in less than a year.

cruzmisl wrote:

Was the 92/60 going northbound on the same road. Prosecutors typically won't be too excited to make a deal with a previous ticket for a similar offence in less than a year.

the 92/60 was in april 2011, it was on a completely different street. northbound on ouellette just before you head up the overpass to go over the train tracks. its to late anyways for deal making, i wasn't looking for deal making i was looking for ticket quashing.

is it legal for one road to have two different speed limits?

I can't think of any reason why it would be illegal. If the limit is 50 then its 50 regardless of being near the 401 or other circumstances. Your chances of getting it dismissed is slim to none IMHO. Looking at googlemaps though it looks like the 92/60 is the same street (different name) but further north. Not that it matters in this case but just sayin'

cruzmisl wrote:

I can't think of any reason why it would be illegal. If the limit is 50 then its 50 regardless of being near the 401 or other circumstances. Your chances of getting it dismissed is slim to none IMHO. Looking at googlemaps though it looks like the 92/60 is the same street (different name) but further north. Not that it matters in this case but just sayin'

92/60 has nothing to do with this or google maps, just lettin' you know. when an officer pulls you over for 72 in a 50km/h literally 200 metres in from of an 80km/h sign and your actual stop is literally 10 ft. from an 80km/h sign , and on his notes write the weather was clear, sunny, dry, its obvious they are trying to rape people of there money its not about public safety.

if the last speed limit sign before the spot an officer pulled you over did not meet OHTA specifications.

found here:

http://www.search.e-laws.gov.on.ca/en/i ... text=#hit1

(i'm going to go measure things up tomorrow. like if the bottom of the sign is 1.5 - 2.5 metres from the road and the distance away from the road it is.)

could this be a reason to dismiss your ticket?

I'll play devils advocate. By your rationale if the road is empty and the weather is good you can go faster than the posted speed limit? Looking at googlemaps there are some houses on the west side of the street. Maybe the home owners don't want people going 80km/h past their house while their kids play in the driveway. Further north there are a lot of businesses then homes on both sides of the street which is likely why its 50km/h. Speed limits start at the sign not before. Not my rules just the way it is.

I think the 401 and 407 speed limits are too low too. They are flat,wide, in good repair and typically have great visibility. I could easily travel those roads at 140km/h and feel perfectly safe. Sadly the government disagrees so I have to do 100.

Anyway, I think you need to re evaluate your defence.

if it is a 50 or 80 zone you would be really SOL...those zones dont even need to be posted, but rather a courtesy the signs are there

The short answer is possibly. It would depend on the location, limit and sign placement. As HwyBear said, the HTA lists "default" speed limits of 50 km/h in town and 80 km/h on highways. If the posted limit was the same as these, I don't think you'd have an argument. If the limit was something different, you may have an argument. Keep in mind, the signs regulation does provide an exemption for placement if the design of the road makes it impracticable to correctly place the sign.

Might help if you could provide the actual location, especially if it's on street view.

If you were driving at the "default speed limit" then yes you could use this as a defence, as Stanton and hwybear said.

For example... if you were doing 50 in a 30 zone in a built-up area, and the sign did not meet O.Reg specifications, then the "default" limit of 50 takes over and you'd probably be found not guilty...

Sad that you are out there with a measuring tape to ensure the sign isn't an inch to small, when you coulda been paying attention to your speed with a similar degree of precision.

Whether or not you succeed and I find it unlikely based on my 20+ years on the pen side of these affairs, the bottom line is it's not a classy defence.

Perhaps got to court, accept that you were speeding and ask nicely for a reduction. The crowns are for more amenable to this than the sign was 2% to small etc.

It's either a valid defence, or it's not. "Classy" has nothing to do with it, especially since this is an absolute liability offence.

the reason i ask this is because, I got a ticket for doing 72km/h in a 50km/h zone. on the officers notes he states it was a properly post 50km/h zone. well the same street on the opposite side from the direction I was traveling is a posted 60km/h zone.

http://www.google.com/maps/myplaces?vps ... dgD&num=10

i've created a map on google with the location of the street signs. as you see on the map the markers without the dot in them are the speed limit signs for the southbound lanes and the markers with the dot in them are the speed limit signs for the northbound lanes.

I was traveling southbound on dougall ave. towards dougall pkwy. the officer on the ticket wrote he clocked me at 72km/h at dougall ave. & darcy st.

the northbound lanes at dougall ave. & darcy st. is a 60km/h zone.

basically my current defense is that i literally travel the road in both directions daily and since i know the northbound lane in this section of the road is a 60km/h zone i thought i was in a 60km/h zone.

the last 50km/h speed limit sign for southbound traffic is 60 metres before the 50km/h speed limit sign for northbound traffic. If this defense is not good enough i wanted to know if the last 50km/h sign does not meet HTA regulations could that section of dougall ave. technically be an improperly posted 60km/h zone??

if this is true this ticket should be thrown out...i think anyways lol. Anyone with better knowledge than me, i'd love to hear from you

gabe wrote:

tthe last 50km/h speed limit sign for southbound traffic is 60 metres before the 50km/h speed limit sign for northbound traffic. If this defense is not good enough i wanted to know if the last 50km/h sign does not meet HTA regulations could that section of dougall ave. technically be an improperly posted 60km/h zone??

your posts have been merged together, stay on one thread

Think we already covered it above, that a speed limit WITHOUT posted signs is 50km/hr in built up area (which in the google map shows houses on one side of road). The posting of a 50km sign is therefore a reminder/courtesy to all drivers, not mandatory.

Likely just used dougall and Darcey as a reference. It doesn't mean that's specifically where the offence took place.

hwybear wrote:

gabe wrote:

tthe last 50km/h speed limit sign for southbound traffic is 60 metres before the 50km/h speed limit sign for northbound traffic. If this defense is not good enough i wanted to know if the last 50km/h sign does not meet HTA regulations could that section of dougall ave. technically be an improperly posted 60km/h zone??

your posts have been merged together, stay on one thread

Think we already covered it above, that a speed limit WITHOUT posted signs is 50km/hr in built up area (which in the google map shows houses on one side of road). The posting of a 50km sign is therefore a reminder/courtesy to all drivers, not mandatory.

so are you saying its possible for one direction of a road can be considered a built up area and the other direction a posted 60km/h zone?

gabe wrote:

so are you saying its possible for one direction of a road can be considered a built up area and the other direction a posted 60km/h zone?

I lean to "no". a road is a road and visibility is usually equal no matter which direction you are going. the built up area covers both directions..... take pictures and prove to the crown that the signage in the area is not clear and create confusion.

Reflections wrote:

gabe wrote:

so are you saying its possible for one direction of a road can be considered a built up area and the other direction a posted 60km/h zone?

I lean to "no". a road is a road and visibility is usually equal no matter which direction you are going. the built up area covers both directions..... take pictures and prove to the crown that the signage in the area is not clear and create confusion.

Should I go out and take pictures myself, or could I just print off pictures from Google's Street View? Would it make a difference in court?

gabe wrote:

Reflections wrote:

gabe wrote:

so are you saying its possible for one direction of a road can be considered a built up area and the other direction a posted 60km/h zone?

I lean to "no". a road is a road and visibility is usually equal no matter which direction you are going. the built up area covers both directions..... take pictures and prove to the crown that the signage in the area is not clear and create confusion.

Should I go out and take pictures myself, or could I just print off pictures from Google's Street View? Would it make a difference in court?

You will have to take your own pictures for them to be admissable in court