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49 over in a fifty
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 10:19 pm 
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Researched many articles on here and am trying to decide the best course of action. I was pulled over for speeding. When the officer told me the speed he allegedly clocked me at I almost fell over he said he clocked me at 99 Km Ina community zone.Here's is where my anger sets in, I know with 100 percent certainty I was not going that speed, I have two family members who were in the car at the time who will attest to that. That's why I chose this name, I am being charged with something I know with 1000% certainty I did not do. Of course the officer does not let you see the radar of course their statement will be that it's unsafe to do so, but it wasn't unsafe for him to ask me to get out of the vehicle and tell me if I fight the ticket they will amend back in the community zone.
I pondered my options and inquired with professionals who basically said they will try to plea deal out of it. So I decided I will take a shot at it myself. I have filed for disclosure. Received at best what I would call a poor reply consisted of maybe eight pages two or three of which I already had. Refilled for disclosure with more specific items requested. I have read numerous posts and at first was pretty confident with fighting it, now the more and more I read my confidence wavers. Perhaps I should backtrack alittle when I got pulled over immediately behimd me another vehicle pulled over also. The officer asked me is he with me I said no. The vehicle then pulled in front of my vehicle again and the other officer went to talk to them. My question is if I go to court can I enter a plea of not guilty, do my best to discredit the officer and equipment for errors. The greatest of which I think is that many have a misconception that the "test" button calibrates the system and therefore makes it accurate. This is so false it's not even funny, something can function but not measure accurately, home scales do it every day!. Now if I go through the trial do my best to discredit the aforementioned but throw in a twist what are the possibly/likely outcomes? My plan is to call two witnesses to attest to the fact that there was a second vehicle, but they will also state my speed! This is where the twist is! By stating my speed they my say that I was speeding but at no where near the rate as to what I am charged with. If I take to the stand and state the facts of the stop and I too state my speed thereby implicating myself but no where near the rate of speed what my be the outcome? To be honest it's not the amount of the fine more the demerit point aspect of it as well as the fact that I was going no where near what is implicated?


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Wed Oct 19, 2016 11:58 pm 
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While the officer may not want to show you the speed listed on his device for safety reasons, it's not the only reason. Another reason is they do not need to prove their case on the side of the road. The road is not a courtroom. If you don't agree with the charge, plead not guilty, make a disclosure request, and get the evidence that way.

I'm not sure what you feel your disclosure request is missing since you haven't gone into any details. I wouldn't call 8 pages worth of material a poor reply for a basic speeding charge. What exactly do you feel is missing?

The officer tests the device according to the manual provided. The officer will check his notes for when he performed the required tests. If you're trying to argue the standards for which the device should be tested in your own opinion, I wish you luck.

Speeding is an absolute liability offense. They only need to prove you were speeding. When you say you want to bring in witnesses to prove you were speeding, but "not that much speeding", your trial is already over. You're already guilty.


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 7:05 am 
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A key component of the material of the disclosure is the operation of the unit, also due to the lack of the table of contents I am uncertain whether certain parts of the sections they did give me were missing. In the eight pages one was the fax cover sheet one was the court date one was the face of the ticket I already had all three of those. And eight pages we are talking photocopied pages. I understand the admission of guilt but there is a HUGE difference between fifteen over and 49 over! My main dislike about the whole situation is how could you possibly have gotten a reading of 107! Something is very suspect. My main mistake in the situation was that I was say 150ish meters from 80 km/h sign and on a downslope I was starting to bring my speed up to 80km to set my cruise. So yes I admit guilt in that I was doing 65km in a fifty but I was honestly unaware the speed change was exactly where the sign is. So was I speeding....yes. Was I stunt driving? Absolutely now. So this is what I would like explain how do you get such a erroneous reading and still claim the device is accurate? I don't wish to argue that it should be test to my standards but to the actual standards of the manufacturer. A test button does not ensure frequencies emitted by the radar are accurate at all. There has been a few reports not only on Cbc but many networks in the u.s on incorrect calibration, key word, of radar units. Many experts have testified by omitting certain procedures you are for certain not measuring with an accurate device. My situation is exactly that point.


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 10:30 am 
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Do his notes say you were doing 107 in a 50 (57 over) but he dropped it to 49 over?

The key of course is to bring doubt to the accuracy of the radar device. Do you have the money to hire an expert witness to testify on your behalf? If you do, PM so we can talk more about it. If you do not, then your opinion (although correct) will not be sufficient to bring doubt to the reading.

However, take a look at this post that I just finished:
topic7815.html

Now of course your testimony and your witnesses testimony that you were speeding will get you a guilty conviction for sure, BUT they may help bring doubt to the speed you were actually doing. So if you show up to court with your witnesses and talk to the prosecutor ahead of time letting them know you have witnesses, then maybe (just maybe) you can convince them to drop it to a lower speed of 29 over or maybe even 15 over. If they will not give you a deal, then you need to go to trial and you and the witnesses take the stand and just say that there was no way you were going that fast and that you beleive you were going XYZ. In this scenario, it is up to the JP to decide if you and your witnesses were convincing enough to drop the speed. Worse case scenario is that the JP does not believe any of you and convicts you of full speed.

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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 12:11 pm 
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Milgarded wrote:
A key component of the material of the disclosure is the operation of the unit, also due to the lack of the table of contents I am uncertain whether certain parts of the sections they did give me were missing.


They are not going to copy the whole manual and send it to you. They will send you the few pages dealing with testing procedures and that's it. If you've made an additional disclosure request for additional pages, don't expect it. At your trial, you can try to convince the JP why you need to see more of the manual. You'll likely get an offer to book an appointment to view the manual at their offices. They adjourn your trial for another day.

Milgarded wrote:
I understand the admission of guilt but there is a HUGE difference between fifteen over and 49 over! My main dislike about the whole situation is how could you possibly have gotten a reading of 107!


Which one is it? 49 or 57 over? If it's 57, 49 is irrelevant. You don't get to have a trial at 49. This is a whole new can of worms.

Milgarded wrote:
I don't wish to argue that it should be test to my standards but to the actual standards of the manufacturer.


The standards are printed out in the testing pages of the manual, provided by the manufacturer, which you should have already received.

Milgarded wrote:
A test button does not ensure frequencies emitted by the radar are accurate at all. There has been a few reports not only on Cbc but many networks in the u.s on incorrect calibration, key word, of radar units. Many experts have testified by omitting certain procedures you are for certain not measuring with an accurate device. My situation is exactly that point.


You are oversimplifying this whole argument. You don't get to show up to court with a print out from a CBC article and walk out convincing a JP all testing procedures in the Province are insufficient.


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:43 pm 
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The standards for configuration of the radar were also altered for the opp because they were finding too many officers were not carrying out the procedure or not doing it correctly. I find it humerus that we simply accept the face that the test makes everything
Ok. All the test feature does is makes sure the display is working, that the unit sends a frequency and that it receives a frequency. It does not mean that the frequency emitted is correct or that it reads the frequency correctly on the return. If you got pulled over by themto for being over weight do you think they would need to certify that the scale was calibrated properly? I also tried to decider his notes as far as hei think it says observed over posted speed. Honestly if it's on a fifty k zone ya laaymqn would have a fifty chance off estimating if speed was over the posted limit or not. I am simply simplifying for sake of this forum I could go int o great detail how the entire process is flawed. This is part of the reason I want to go to trial to get the various facts on record so attention can be brought forward of the errors. Why should the charge dictate that we assume certain evidence. If this was say a murder charge would we naturally accept the fact that someone said the gun wasn't working or would we ask for proof of such? The government could be making millions off of us for incorrectly measuring devices and they know this. Such a small percentage fight tickets it's like a money printing machine.


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:32 pm 
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I pretty much agree with everything you are saying.

The test button on the radar does NOT send or receive a beam form the antenna. It only verifies the internal electronics. So really it does not actually test that the unit is functioning properly at all.

I have a Diploma in Electronics Engineering Technology so I think I am going to start some studies on radar and lidar so that I can become an expert witness.

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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 8:58 pm 
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Correct me if I'm wrong, does a lidar not have to occasionally be checked against a radar? But a radar we don't have to check against anything? Does that not seem odd? But back to my question again should I take the route of taking the stand my self. The Oder of process would be the persecution calls the officer first, once done I get to cross examine. Then I get to call witnesses? Is that correct? Also if I do testify to doing 65 in a fifty (with witnesses and speedometer certification on my vehicle, am I more likely to get charged for the speed I was in fact travelling or will the prosecution try to push for the trumped up,charge of 49 over?


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 9:16 am 
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You are wrong, lidar does not have to be checked against radar. Unless you have documentation to say your speedometer was calibrated at the time of the offence I doubt the court would let you tender evidence after the fact...If you take the stand and say you were speeding, by any amount, you will be convicted. Yes, prosecution witnesses go first, you get to cross examine them. Once the prosecution does not intend to call any more witnesses, you have your witnesses testify. The prosecution will have a chance to cross examine your witnesses, as well as you, should you take the stand.


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 10:46 am 
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If you and your witnesses take the stand and testify you were only going 65 in a 50, I honestly do not know how it will turn out for you. It is up to the JP... with three of you testifying the same thing, the JP might believe you all over the officer. But the JP might also say she thinks the three of you are all colluding and go with the officers testimony. I think it is about a 50/50 chance of whether or not the JP believes you and your witnesses over officer.

Very important point here is this... Do the officers notes say that you were going 50+ over and they dropped it to 49 over? 50+ over is a SERIOUS offence for insurance purposes and your rates will more than double versus 49 over which is usually a MINOR offence for insurance purposes and will only cause a small increase. So if the officers notes say you were doing 50+ over, and the JP does not believe you and your witnesses, then you will be charged with the higher rate of speed that the officer testifies about.

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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:55 pm 
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>jsherk,

how are 3 people going to testify that the car was doing 65 or any speed for that point.

Wouldn't all 3 need to be looking at the speedo? That's not likly ? Is the driver at some point going to tel his passengers, hey guyz I'm doing 65 now in case anyone asks.

Not trying to be a smarta$$, but... seriously?


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 12:56 pm 
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and if the admit to the driver doing 65 in a 50, then they are admitting to speeding......... <confused>


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2016 2:20 pm 
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Yes there are going to be issues with three people testifying about speed which is why I suggested a 50/50 chance of it working. What they say and how they say it will be important to the JP's decision. If it was just the driver testifying himself then the chances are pretty much 0 that JP will believe driver over officer. Add a couple more witnesses though, and maybe (MAYBE) JP will believe them.

The op agreed he was speeding about 15 over but was not speeding at 49 over so that was the issue was trying to bring the speed down.

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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Sat Oct 22, 2016 10:52 pm 
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Sorry yes it was knocked down to 49 over. I get I would be convicted of speeding but a fine for the speed I was actually going as opposed to the 49 over is significant! Any if an officer can "estimate the speed of a vehicle generally +/- 5kms" would one not think that some one simply sitting in the passenger seat with any sort of driving experience could tell when they are going 65 or 99? I also read on here a post about getting an officer to read a passage about the necessity to calibrate radars, and someone said that you can't do that because you need the author present for cross examination. Yet I just read case law that states the author of radar manuals do not need to be present if references are made from said manual. And perhaps we are all missing the fact here that there is a HUGE! Difference between 65 and 99 and The fact that the system accepts certain things such lack or non existence of calibration to be accepted. Basically you get wrongly accused of a crime and have not real grounds to fight it. It is also easy for three people to see the speedo at one time especially when one is in the back seat. And trust me when the flashing lights go on, the first thing everyone checks is speed cmon!


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Re: 49 over in a fifty
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 11:56 am 
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Milgarded wrote:
Yet I just read case law that states the author of radar manuals do not need to be present if references are made from said manual.

Do you remember which case law this was?

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