Scenario: You are coming off of a highway exit and there are 3 lanes: right hand lane for right hand turn; middle lane for left AND right turn (but no straight thru since it is only a three-way intersection); and left lane for left hand turn. You are first in the middle lane, signalling to make a right. CAN YOU make a right hand turn from the middle lane on a red if the traffic is clear? I have always assumed no. Yesterday, I had a road rager honking at me to do so. At first, I didn't as I couldn't see if the coast was clear due to a large pickup truck blocking my view to the left of me. Luckily I didn't pull out because as I inched forth to see if there was traffic, a Mazda van whipped past me that would've creamed me and my car. She kept honking. I inched forward enough and, I'll admit, out of sheer intimidation, I turned. All the way along Dundas, this completely inbalanced twit drove carelessly, not signalling while cutting me off, and when I honked, she LAUGHED! I wanted to cut her off, get out of my car, and beat the twit to a pulp. I was embarassed at my basic emotion to get violent, but I was SO angry. So, when I got home, I called OPP. To ask if I was right or wrong in terms of not being allowed to make a right from a middle lane on a red. He said, yes, I was correct, so long as it wasn't posted. He was not sure, however, so I then called Hamilton Police and asked another officer if this was legal or not. He said that as far as he knew, no, it was not legal. He said the rule was "curb to curb". Can I get some opinions on this? I agree with the officer(s), but both of them weren't sure, exactly. So, I'm hoping to get some clarification here. Thx!!!! Marquisse
Scenario:
You are coming off of a highway exit and there are 3 lanes: right hand lane for right hand turn; middle lane for left AND right turn (but no straight thru since it is only a three-way intersection); and left lane for left hand turn. You are first in the middle lane, signalling to make a right.
CAN YOU make a right hand turn from the middle lane on a red if the traffic is clear?
I have always assumed no. Yesterday, I had a road rager honking at me to do so. At first, I didn't as I couldn't see if the coast was clear due to a large pickup truck blocking my view to the left of me. Luckily I didn't pull out because as I inched forth to see if there was traffic, a Mazda van whipped past me that would've creamed me and my car. She kept honking. I inched forward enough and, I'll admit, out of sheer intimidation, I turned. All the way along Dundas, this completely inbalanced twit drove carelessly, not signalling while cutting me off, and when I honked, she LAUGHED! I wanted to cut her off, get out of my car, and beat the twit to a pulp. I was embarassed at my basic emotion to get violent, but I was SO angry.
So, when I got home, I called OPP. To ask if I was right or wrong in terms of not being allowed to make a right from a middle lane on a red. He said, yes, I was correct, so long as it wasn't posted. He was not sure, however, so I then called Hamilton Police and asked another officer if this was legal or not. He said that as far as he knew, no, it was not legal. He said the rule was "curb to curb".
Can I get some opinions on this? I agree with the officer(s), but both of them weren't sure, exactly. So, I'm hoping to get some clarification here.
Next time inch backwards..... Rule #1 about driving: Can't see, Don't go! Next time get the plate and call that in. "Yes officer, I think the driver is impaired. She's swerving, honking her horn obsesevly and she's ugly too"...."Whats that, no I didn't give her my phone number!".... :shock:
Marquisse wrote:
I inched forward enough
Next time inch backwards.....
Rule #1 about driving: Can't see, Don't go!
Marquisse wrote:
All the way along Dundas, this completely inbalanced twit drove carelessly
Next time get the plate and call that in. "Yes officer, I think the driver is impaired. She's swerving, honking her horn obsesevly and she's ugly too"...."Whats that, no I didn't give her my phone number!"....
http://www.OHTA.ca OR http://www.OntarioTrafficAct.com
HTA 141 Right turn at intersection (2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered. Right turn, where multiple lanes (3) Despite subsection (2), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a right-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the right into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced.
HTA 141 Right turn at intersection
(2) Where a driver or operator of a vehicle intends to turn to the right into an intersecting highway, he or she shall, where the highway on which he or she is driving has marked lanes for traffic, approach the intersection within the right-hand lane or, where it has no such marked lanes, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway and he or she shall make the right turn by entering the right-hand lane of the intersecting highway where the lane is marked or, where no such lane is marked, by keeping immediately to the left of the right curb or edge of the roadway being entered.
Right turn, where multiple lanes
(3) Despite subsection (2), where more than one lane of a highway has been designated as a right-turn lane, the driver or operator of a vehicle intending to turn to the right into an intersecting highway shall approach the intersection in one of the lanes and leave the intersection in the lane of the intersecting highway that corresponds to the lane from which the turn was commenced.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
Thks Bear for the edit and move. I appreciate your post as well. It doesn't answer my question because we know we can turn in the middle lane if said middle lane is marked, but can we actually make the right hand turn from the marked middle lane on a red light? Two traffic officers said no, one with a disclaimer, the other, definitively citing "curb to curb". So, if I get a ticket one day for doing so, am I going to have to tell the officer how to do his job? I imagine that will go over REAL well (in addition to getting multiple tickets immediately afterward). LOLOL, I say that because TWO officers I spoke with said that they WOULD ticket in that instance. Imagine a layperson paying such a fine and suffering the demerits when he/she has broken no law!?
Thks Bear for the edit and move. I appreciate your post as well. It doesn't answer my question because we know we can turn in the middle lane if said middle lane is marked, but can we actually make the right hand turn from the marked middle lane on a red light?
Two traffic officers said no, one with a disclaimer, the other, definitively citing "curb to curb". So, if I get a ticket one day for doing so, am I going to have to tell the officer how to do his job? I imagine that will go over REAL well (in addition to getting multiple tickets immediately afterward). LOLOL, I say that because TWO officers I spoke with said that they WOULD ticket in that instance.
Imagine a layperson paying such a fine and suffering the demerits when he/she has broken no law!?
"Curb to curb" would apply if the middle lane was a through lane or left turn lane. In that case, a turn to the right on red would be disobeying the lane markings, or an improper turn. If the lane is designated for a right turn, then yes, you can make the turn on a red. Section 144 of the HTA, as Squishy was saying, outlines what can be done at intersections. Section (18 ) is stopping for red lights; section (14) involves green arrows. But nothing anywhere in the HTA prohibits turning from a designated right turning lane (even the "middle" lane) against a red light, unless, of course, there are "no turn on red" signs. I'd save my arguments for the JP. As for the road-raging sociopath that you ran into earlier, it sounds like she had way more issues than just the turn, and probably should have her head examined. While it is a legal turn, it is far more complicated than just "curb to curb," so not moving is understandable even if it is legal. If she really, really needed to make that turn ASAP, she could've moved to the right lane. Instead, she decided to be a blazing idiot - did you get her licence #? EDIT: On my original post, I put down that 144 (18 ) was for amber lights; that's been corrected. :oops:
"Curb to curb" would apply if the middle lane was a through lane or left turn lane. In that case, a turn to the right on red would be disobeying the lane markings, or an improper turn. If the lane is designated for a right turn, then yes, you can make the turn on a red. Section 144 of the HTA, as Squishy was saying, outlines what can be done at intersections.
(19) Despite subsection (18 ) and subject to subsection (14), a driver, after stopping his or her vehicle and yielding the right of way to traffic lawfully approaching so closely that to proceed would constitute an immediate hazard, may,
(a) turn to the right; or
(b) turn to the left from a one-way street into a one-way street,
without a green indication being shown.
Section (18 ) is stopping for red lights; section (14) involves green arrows. But nothing anywhere in the HTA prohibits turning from a designated right turning lane (even the "middle" lane) against a red light, unless, of course, there are "no turn on red" signs.
Marquisse wrote:
So, if I get a ticket one day for doing so, am I going to have to tell the officer how to do his job?
I'd save my arguments for the JP. As for the road-raging sociopath that you ran into earlier, it sounds like she had way more issues than just the turn, and probably should have her head examined. While it is a legal turn, it is far more complicated than just "curb to curb," so not moving is understandable even if it is legal. If she really, really needed to make that turn ASAP, she could've moved to the right lane. Instead, she decided to be a blazing idiot - did you get her licence #?
EDIT: On my original post, I put down that 144 (18 ) was for amber lights; that's been corrected.
Last edited by Radar Identified on Wed Sep 09, 2009 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thanks RI. Your explanation explains all the other explanations. So, for the purposes of your explanation, even if the middle lane is designated a left AND right, or (if a 4-way intersection), left, right and centre, it is still considered designated right turning lane. I may make a right on a red, but always giving right of way (and using common sense). Oh, and I could not resist saying SOMETHING to the officer, including the prosecutor, such as who the hell is going to pay my days' wages for charging me with a non-existent offense. That, not to mention all of the anxiety and bother that goes along with getting ticketed for the average Jane/Joe, is completely unjust. Still, the twit in the other car was wrong. If I could see traffic, then I could've discerned whether or not it was SAFE to do so. Edited: Yes, got her licence plate, but unless I go into a detachment to report, calling it in is useless. Thanks for all of your help. I obviously couldn't get a proper answer going to THE SOURCE on TWO separate occasions, and once again, you've all proved just how valuable a resource you all are.
Thanks RI. Your explanation explains all the other explanations.
So, for the purposes of your explanation, even if the middle lane is designated a left AND right, or (if a 4-way intersection), left, right and centre, it is still considered designated right turning lane. I may make a right on a red, but always giving right of way (and using common sense).
Oh, and I could not resist saying SOMETHING to the officer, including the prosecutor, such as who the hell is going to pay my days' wages for charging me with a non-existent offense. That, not to mention all of the anxiety and bother that goes along with getting ticketed for the average Jane/Joe, is completely unjust.
Still, the twit in the other car was wrong. If I could see traffic, then I could've discerned whether or not it was SAFE to do so. Edited: Yes, got her licence plate, but unless I go into a detachment to report, calling it in is useless.
Thanks for all of your help. I obviously couldn't get a proper answer going to THE SOURCE on TWO separate occasions, and once again, you've all proved just how valuable a resource you all are.
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