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35 over and no license
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:26 pm
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Hi everyone,

On the morning of January 26th I was speeding like crazy.. but I feel like im in the right. I was on mayfield rd going west and past highway 410 and the speed was 80km. I kept going and then past heart lake road (an intersection) after the traffic light is 60 (supposdly) and then a km later was the opp officer waiting for me. He told me I was going 95 in a 60 zone... any defence at the fact that there was abscense of signs?? i find that its unfair that there was no 60 kmh sign for a good at least 1 km (almost 2)

I was shocked didnt even ask him to reduce it didnt ask him how he knew etc

So I guess based off the others ask for a trial and then when they send a letter in the mail saying my court date is XX/XX/XXXX then call up the caledon court office for disclsoure...Is this right?

I should also add when he asked for my license I gave it and he came back and said it was expired... I had no idea... I hope I dont get charged for it... The OPP officer said that if you go to service ontario right now and get it fixed you prob wont get charged for it.. So thats what I did and then some.. I went to serice ontario and got it renewed (it was only a month late), then I went on the website and saw a section of the website that says that they mail you reminders but I know for a fact I did not get it. I called drivers assistance 1800 number but they said they dont keep track of who they send it to and who they do not send it to and that sometimes we miss sending it to people... maybe I can use that as defence? I got the agent id who I spoke to his name and badge id.
I also set up email reminders so I dont make this mistake again.

At the end of the day the fine is the fine... the main thing im concerned about is the insurance.. so I got two tickets... does it matter the demerit points and all that? Or is insurance based on how many offenses you have in for example a year or 5 years.

Thanks guys


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Re: 35 over and no license
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 11:34 pm 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:43 pm
Posts: 6
Approximately 100 meters past the Heartlake intersection is a posted speed limit sign reading 60km/h, and approximately 100 meters before the intersection indicating that it will be 60km/h after it. The next sign appears to be approximately a kilometer from the intersection. This is from google maps in July of 2015 and I assume they are still erect. I'm not an expert but I don't think the defense of no signage will work. As far as dropping the ticket, afaik, that's optional on the officer's part. You must have had someone tough that day.

Just for the sake of mentioning it, I must say that even though he didn't drop the speeding amount, you are very fortunate that he didn't ticket you for an expired license. He could have done so. Maybe he has a thing about speeding and is a softie for the license. Only he knows. And yes, it's always your responsibility, not Service Ontario or anyone else, to ensure your license, sticker and insurance are up to date and valid.

In any case, I'm not the expert on fighting tickets and knowing what disclosure will do for you if anything but just thought I'd point out that the speed limits appear to be clearly marked and that's quite the ticket you dodged on the expired license if that makes you feel better.


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Re: 35 over and no license
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 8:20 am 
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Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:26 pm
Posts: 3
Hi there,

I should have made this clearer - I did get a ticket for expired license but he said go to service Ontario right now and get it fixed and then the prosecuter will take that into consideration

There's a number of things I've done to help my case with expired license
1. Renewed my license same day ( in a couple of hours)
2. Signed up for email renewals reminders on website
3. Got sworn affadavit from my mom (stays at home goes through all mail) saying I didn't receive any mail for license
4. Agent id and name of licensing assurance 1800 agent who said sometimes we don't mail t out to everyone
5. Got a picture of the MTO website saying they do indeed mail out letters to people as reminders
6. Interaction with officer who pulled me over saying the prosecutor will let this one go

Anything else I can do to help my case? I'm pretty much thinking the state should mail me reminder they have in the past and set up expectation to.. I don't just pull out my license and start looking at it.




As for the speed signs thanks for going into google maps.. I went there after my ticket and there is no sign after heartlake road anymore saying 60 begins. The sign before that says 60 up ahead but that could be left up to interpretation... when will 60 begin?? Before the 60 up ahead sign it says 80... so to sum it up as you drive on mayfield it says 80 then 50ish meters later it says 60 up ahead and then no other sign then I saw cop

Does that make a difference?


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Re: 35 over and no license
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:54 am 
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:43 pm
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Just as a disclaimer, I am not an expert in HTA laws other than what most any other layperson may know. I'm new to commenting here and have so far tried to limit (and if I post again will limit) what I say to casual observation.

That said, I'm sorry to hear that he did ding you for the expired. As a layperson, my understanding is that it is always our own responsibility to ensure that license/insurance and stickers are up to date. The reminder notices in the mail are always handy (do they do email yet?) but even if they get sent out and dropping in the wrong slot at community mail boxes (very common with some friends of mine), Service Ontario has done their part but the chain broke and you're left wondering why you didn't get notified. So you didn't get a notification, it went to your neighbour who promptly binned it and you're left thinking you're all good. I agree though, who really looks at their license that often. I would expect most people have other things on their minds.

As far as the speed limit signs go, again as a layperson, I believe anytime you see one with an arrow in front of an intersection, the change takes effect just after that intersection. For those who will turn at that intersection, the sign just after it will serve to inform them that there is a change in speed if the crossroad is higher or lower. Does the missing sign give you a defense? I don't know. If you saw the "ahead" sign, you've been told. If you turned off of Heartlake, you haven't been notified. If that sign is truly missing, you might want to get over there and drive it with a friend video recording the entire strip to prove that sign is missing. Could you then fib and say you turned and therefore got no notification? Yes but I'm not one to condone anything but the truth.


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Re: 35 over and no license
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:15 pm 
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Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:00 pm
Posts: 88
satwgill wrote:
Hi everyone,

On the morning of January 26th I was speeding like crazy.. but I feel like im in the right. I was on mayfield rd going west and past highway 410 and the speed was 80km. I kept going and then past heart lake road (an intersection) after the traffic light is 60 (supposdly) and then a km later was the opp officer waiting for me. He told me I was going 95 in a 60 zone... any defence at the fact that there was abscense of signs?? i find that its unfair that there was no 60 kmh sign for a good at least 1 km (almost 2)


General information on speeding charges can be found here and the actual section of the HTA can be found here.

At 35 km/h over the posted speed limit, the offence falls into the second highest range of speeding offences (+30 to +49 km/h). Regarding the expired licence, it is likely a 0 demerit point offence, but a conviction would result in the offence showing on your driving record.

Generally roadways will have an assumed maximum speed limit unless otherwise posted.

_________________
The content of this post is not legal advice. Legal advice can only be provided after a licenced paralegal has been retained, spoken with you directly, and reviewed the documents related to your case.


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Re: 35 over and no license
PostPosted: Fri Jan 27, 2017 7:20 pm 
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Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 1:08 pm
Posts: 525
Location: Ontario
If you go to trial and the facts are as you present them you will be found guilty of both charges.

Even if you can argue that the speed limit should have been 80 due to inadequate signage you were still caught speeding (15 over) you can be charged with speeding even 1 km over the limit.

Not getting notice to renew your license is no defense as your drivers license has an expiry date on it to serve as a reminder every time you open your wallet.

If the case against you is strong, you'll probably want to plea it out. So from my experience the odds are the prosecutor offers to drop your license charge in exchange for a 15 over no points guilty plea.

Only way you can outright win this is either by a technicality or if you can demonstrate that there is not enough evidence to convict you.

I'd ask for a trial and request and review disclosure post it here and go from there.


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Re: 35 over and no license
PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:09 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1599
I would plead NOT GUILTY and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your Notice of Trial, then you can ask for disclosure.

The prosecutor does NOT have to offer you any kind of plea deal at all and does not have to drop any of the charges. Once an officer writes a ticket, they can not withdraw it, only the prosecutor can withdraw it. On your trial date, make sure you take all your receipts from service ontario showing you renewed your license. Most likely (no guarantees) the prosecutor will offer to drop the no license charge if you plead guilty to the speeding charge. You could also ask of the prosecutor will consider dropping the speeding charge down to 15 over (if they say no then try 20 over, etc). If they are in a really good mood they may do that as well.

If you do not want to take a plea deal (if you are offered one) then you will end up having to fight BOTH tickets at trial. Not surrendering your license is almost impossible to beat in court, unless the officer does not show up or the officer does not have any notes about it in his notebook.

Insurance companies do not care about demerit points. A 0 demerit speeding charge will cause you insurance rate to go up the same as a 3 demerit speeding charge.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: 35 over and no license
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 4:43 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:26 pm
Posts: 3
jsherk wrote:
I would plead NOT GUILTY and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your Notice of Trial, then you can ask for disclosure.

The prosecutor does NOT have to offer you any kind of plea deal at all and does not have to drop any of the charges. Once an officer writes a ticket, they can not withdraw it, only the prosecutor can withdraw it. On your trial date, make sure you take all your receipts from service ontario showing you renewed your license. Most likely (no guarantees) the prosecutor will offer to drop the no license charge if you plead guilty to the speeding charge. You could also ask of the prosecutor will consider dropping the speeding charge down to 15 over (if they say no then try 20 over, etc). If they are in a really good mood they may do that as well.

If you do not want to take a plea deal (if you are offered one) then you will end up having to fight BOTH tickets at trial. Not surrendering your license is almost impossible to beat in court, unless the officer does not show up or the officer does not have any notes about it in his notebook.

Ok so this is my plan
Tomorrow I am going to go to court and then I am going to drop by to see if I can go see prosecuter unscheduled if he does see me great if not then I'm going to schedule a prosecuter meeting

If he offers me to get rid of expired license completely but lay the speeding ticket u think I should take that deal? Cause based off ur understanding it's the numb

Insurance companies do not care about demerit points. A 0 demerit speeding charge will cause you insurance rate to go up the same as a 3 demerit speeding charge.


Ok so this is my plan.. tomorrow I'm gonna go to court and see if I can see prosecuter without an appointment .. if he offers me right away a good deal being get rid of expired license and then reduces the other ticket I will take that.. if not then I'll schedule a formal prosecuter meeting.. then next step is disclosure and court

So is it true demerit points don't matter? Isn't my speeding a major ticket meaning it will affect my insurance for sure ????


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Re: 35 over and no license
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 5:08 pm 
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1599
Insurance companies do not care about demerit points and they mean nothing to them. They rate charges in one of three categories: MINOR, MAJOR or SERIOUS (serious being things like DUI and Careless).

For example, a 15 over 0 demerit speeding charge and a 29 over 3 demerit speeding charge are both considered a MINOR against your insurance, and can cause the same increase.

For a 30 to 49 over 4 demerit speeding charge, some insurance companies consider this a MINOR as well and while some consider it a MAJOR. The only way to know which it is, is to ask your insurance company.

_________________
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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