Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

phillycheese
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Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by phillycheese »

What Happened:
I was driving on Hwy 7 the sign that was posted was 50kmph. I was going 70kmph since the car in front of me was doing the same speed. Apparently, I was being tailed by a cop and after a few seconds the cop pulls me over. She tells me that I was speeding and that she has video that shows how fast her cruiser was going while tailing me.

Offense:
Disobey Sign 182(2) and a fine of $110

My question:
Will I have a chance in court since she did not clock my speed on a radar gun? Will the cop be able to use the video as evidence in court?

Thanks


ynotp
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by ynotp »

This is not a speeding charge so the actual speed is of no consequence when dealing with the fine amount, demerit points or if it is viewed as major/minor by your insurer. The nice thing about this one is that after 6 months you can go to trial without worrying about the prosecutor asking the court to amending the speed to a higher one with a higher fine and more points.

To secure a conviction the prosecutor will have the officer testify that you were going faster that the posted speed limit. So if she was tailing you going 70 in a posted 50 and has video evidence to back up her claim then that should do it. If the disclosure is in order and the officer is present on the day of trial you can always plead guilty and pay the fine, or go to trial to get some experience with the process and get your $110 dollars worth.


jsherk
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by jsherk »

Yes you always have a chance in court. But note that she did not charge you with speeding so radar is not an issue.

Yes the officer can use video evidence in court.

I would choose NOT GUILTY option and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your notice of trial, then you request disclosure which will include the officers notes and copy of the video. If they do not provide the video with disclosure, then they can not use it in court (or you can object if they try to).
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


phillycheese
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by phillycheese »

Thanks for the advice. So the only way of winning this is if:

1) She doesn't show up.
2) She doesn't actually have a video? And she used her speedometer to gauge my speed.
3) If she does have a video - can I argue on the accuracy of the speed?

My goal is to not have this show up on my driver's abstract.


jsherk
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by jsherk »

Officers will almost always show up now a days so don't rely on that one.

The video does not matter and radar does not matter. Police can charge you with speeding just by tailing/pacing you. Whatever is in the officers notes will be her testimony, so basically she has to testify to (1) what the sign said, and (2) how you disobeyed it. So if notes say there was a 50km/h speed limit sign and she followed you for 5 seconds going faster than that sign then she has said all she needs to say.
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


iFly55
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by iFly55 »

If the officer used pacing to lay the charge, you can still ask the officer questions. Calibration sticker on the speedometer? Tire pressures? Were they set to OEM? When were they last checked?

R. v. Koumoudouros [2005] O.J. No. 5055: https://anonfiles.com/file/41c5ca1ebd22 ... 6fc53aa600
R. v. Sibio, 2010 ONCJ 315 (CanLII): http://canlii.ca/t/2btl3
R. v. Violi, 2011 ONCJ 788 (CanLII): ttp://canlii.ca/t/fphgw

Off topic: i know for my vehicle that the speedometer over-reads 10%, so 130 indicated on the speedometer is ~115 on the GPS/Radar. I actually rely more on my GPS speedometer than the needle inside my dash.

I brought this to the attention of the dealership, and they told me it was legal to set it up like this. They can legally show you a speed 10% higher + 4km/hr in Europe. Transport Canada has no federal regulations for the accuracy of speedometers.

I've also driven in some vehicles where the speedometer speed was equal to the GPS speed.


viper1
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by viper1 »

Just //// a FYI

I had gps on a phone
I had brake fast and the phone moved.
It read around 200k as speed
"hang onto your chair when reading my posts
use at your own risk"


phillycheese
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by phillycheese »

UPDATE:

So I have a court date in September. I filled out the disclosure request they have provided the officer's notes and a dash cam video.

The video DOES NOT show the cop tailing me - instead, the cop is 100-125 feet behind me (with 2-4 cars in between us). The cop had to speed up to 80 kmph briefly to catch up to me. But by the time the cop caught up I was already at a red light. Hence, why I was just given a disobey sign since the cop could not accurately judge my speed.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!


jsherk
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by jsherk »

Can you scan and post the notes (black out personal and officer details)?

It will be interesting to see what sign you supposedly disobeyed!
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


phillycheese
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by phillycheese »

jsherk wrote:Can you scan and post the notes (black out personal and officer details)?

It will be interesting to see what sign you supposedly disobeyed!
Apologies for the delay... below is the note:
Attachments
disclosure.jpg
disclosure.jpg (130.89 KiB) Viewed 541 times


jsherk
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by jsherk »

Okay so it looks like the sign you disobeyed was the 50 km/h posted speed sign.

The dashcam video may show you going faster than everybody else, but it does not prove you were speeding, so whether they have it or not, is not a big issue.

When you request disclosure, you want to ask for a copy of the officers notes AND a copy of all records related to the calibration and accuracy of the speedometer. In order to prove you disobeyed the sign, the officer is relying on their speedometer, and you therefore you can cross-examine them and ask them for as much information about it's accuracy as possible.

If you did not ask for the speedometer records, then you should send another request ASAP asking for that information as well.
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


argyll
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by argyll »

It'll be tough. The officer will be able to speak to extensive driving experience and that he believed he was going well over 50 and you were pulling away. Without your taking the stand and saying you weren't speeding that's going to be pretty compelling evidence. He doesn't need to provide evidence of a particular speed, just that you were going over 50.
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


screeech
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Re: Disobey Sign 182 (2) Need Help

Unread post by screeech »

The accuracy of the speedometer is a very small issue...if the officer were trying to prove you were speeding by a few Km over the limit, via the speedometer, then yes, it would be a factor...the officer is stating you were doing more than 30Km over the limit...there is no way the cruiser speedometer was out by 30Km...the officer only need prove that you were going over the maximum speed limit, not by how much...Speeding is one of the very few times a person can give opinion evidence on without having to be qualified as an expert...


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