defence for disobey sign 182(2) - no u turn sign
itsvince
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defence for disobey sign 182(2) - no u turn sign

Unread post by itsvince »

Hi, I would greatly appreciate help in finding a good defence, here is a summary of what happened:

I was picking someone up at the subway station on Main Street. I stopped right in front of the station, northbound, she hopped in, then I checked to make sure no one was coming both ways (it was a quiet Sunday morning), went forward a bit, and u turned to go south. Cop pulled out of a narrow alleyway (likely private property) and pointed at me to pull over.

The cop then pointed out that there was a no u turn sign posted right in front of the subway station. I could not see it when I did my u turn because I had stopped just metres after passing it, and there is no other sign further down the street, so there was no sign for me to look at as it was behind me.

The ticket is for $110, "disobey sign" HTA 182(2). He misspelled the street name in my address on the ticket. He did not check the "witnesses" box on the ticket, even though I had a passenger in the car. My trial date is set for approximately 11 months after the offence.

Thanks in advance!


Stanton
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Re: defence for disobey sign 182(2) - no u turn sign

Unread post by Stanton »

I don't see the fact that the sign was no longer visible being a defence. As long as the sign was visible before you passed it, you're expected to make note of it and obey it.

As for incorrect spelling of your street address, that isn't what would be considered a fatal error. The witness checkbox also isn't a fatal error, but in your case it's correct to leave it blank. Your passenger would not be considered a Crown witness for Court purposes. You can certainly call them as your own witness, but the Crown wouldn't need them to prove the offence.


kazkaz
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Re: defence for disobey sign 182(2) - no u turn sign

Unread post by kazkaz »

Hi,

I just got a ticket in the same place today and I was wondering how it went for you?

Did you go to court yet?

Please let me know about your case. I appreciate it.

Is there any hope? I can not afford the points (2 points).

Cheers

Kazkaz


itsvince
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Re: defence for disobey sign 182(2) - no u turn sign

Unread post by itsvince »

kazkaz wrote:Hi,

I just got a ticket in the same place today and I was wondering how it went for you?

Did you go to court yet?

Please let me know about your case. I appreciate it.

Is there any hope? I can not afford the points (2 points).

Cheers

Kazkaz
I'm going to court in August. Had to go to Markham Rd courthouse to request a court date. Recently, I requested disclosure with the form available on the City's website. I am hoping to at least settle for a lesser offence when I meet the prosecutor before the trial, depending on what comes back from the disclosure request.


itsvince
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Re: defence for disobey sign 182(2) - no u turn sign

Unread post by itsvince »

I went to court this morning and got lucky - the officer didn't show up so the prosecutor withdrew the charge and I was free to go! Pretty happy about it, I think that was the best scenario.

My trial was at 10:30 but I got there at 9:30 and listened to the 9am trials to learn about procedures.

The way it goes is that they tell everyone in the waiting room to go into the courtroom about 15 minutes before the scheduled time, and everyone lines up and checks in with the prosecutor in the courtroom. The prosecutor asked everyone if they were looking to avoid losing points, and if they said yes she would offer a deal of $60 and no points for them to plead guilty to. She offered me this deal, and I told her "maybe, but by the way I had requested disclosure 9 weeks before by fax and never received it". She asked to see my fax confirmation and I showed it to her. Then she said we can wait until the officer shows up and I can take a look at his notes and decide what I will do. I said that this would not allow me enough time to prepare but let's see, and just sat down and waited while the other trials began. She kept calling my officer's badge number between trials and he still wasn't there. So 15 minutes after the trials began, she called up my case and withdrew the charges because the officer wasn't there.

Before going to court, I filled out and faxed in the City's standard disclosure request form about 9 weeks before my trial. I had done this on a Friday afternoon around 6 pm, hoping they would ignore or misplace it. When I told her I did not receive disclosure, she looked through her pile of disclosure requests and did not find mine, and asked me to show her the fax confirmation. I used a free web fax service, and she seemed a bit suspicious but let it go. Next time I will try to use a normal fax machine. However, she did confirm that I had used the right fax number (4163387703). Also next time, I would re-fax or call at least 2 weeks before the trial - I think this would help a lot in case you use "lack of disclosure" as a reason for an adjournment or stay and get questioned by the judge. That was my plan B. Make sure you have all the documentation though, and write down the dates and people's names if you speak to anyone on the phone, in case anyone asks.

In court, make sure to be very polite and courteous. Smile and use "your worship" as much as you can when talking to the judge. Dress nicely too. Appearances seem to be important for this game.

If the officer would have shown up, I would have taken a copy of his notes and still asked the judge for a remedy on account of late disclosure, which would probably be an adjournment, or a stay if I was lucky. In that case you have to be clear that it is the prosecution's fault and you are not waiving your rights to an 11B Charter motion (right to a speedy trial), which you could file immediately after because your trial would be over a year after. Some guy this morning had an 11B previously filed and the prosecutor withdrew the charges right away.






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