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182 (2) - No sign
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 8:53 pm
Hi, I received a 182 (2) ticket and I am confused on what I did wrong.
Here is the scenario....
I was exiting the hwy and I was about to turn right. When I approached the intersection the right turn signal went from green to red. Since I was traveling at a good speed I had no time to stop. While I was turning right I made the comment to my wife and parents that were in the car... did you see that .... the light went from green to red.... What happened to the yellow?!?!?!
I safely made the turn to find a cop a few meters down the road. He exited his car to stop me. At this point in time I was in the left lane of the three lane hwy. I stopped my car in that lane. He told me to drive across the three lanes and wait for him.
Having no idea what I was being charged with I asked the cop what I did wrong. I did not get an answer. He then asked me how my driving record was? I answered it is OK. I asked him again and he responded with the same comment. My father who was sitting beside me asked him what we did wrong. In turn, the cop asked my dad if he was wearing a seat belt but still didn't answer the question.
The cop took my info and returned to my car with the ticket.
I once again asked what I did wrong. He handed me the ticket and all it reads is disobey sign. I asked him what sign and he didn't answer me. Thinking I was being charged for running a red light I asked him if I turned on a yellow or a red. He said that since he wasn't behind me he didn't know. He said that since the traffic was so close behind me that it must have been red. I then asked him if I could turn right on a yellow and he said no. I asked him if he saw the yellow light and he said he didn't need to. I asked him if that intersection had a yellow light and he said he has no idea but it is illegal to turn on a yellow. I told him that there wasn't a yellow light and that was the root cause for me turning on a 'red'.
Since he looked shocked I asked him to come see as I have never seen a light that did not have a yellow. I tried to open my door and he shouted to stay in the vehicle. I asked one more time what I was being charged for. Once again no answer. This time he just walked away!!!!!!!!!!!!
So, I still have no idea what I did but after googleing the 182 (2) I think I am getting charged for turning on a red light but I'm not sure.
Since he wasn't behind me how does he know the other people didn't enter the intersection on the red?
The ticket is only 110 so should I just pay it? I am about 2 hrs away from York so it will cost me well over 110 bucks to drive to town, park etc.
I'd just pay the ticket if I did do something wrong but since I didn't I am having trouble writing the check!!!!!!!!!!
Do I have a chance to win this? I spoke to my uncle who is the Chief of Police in a different town and he said that I would have trouble winning without a real lawyer. He thinks that the cop will say that in his opinion I turned on a red light. Since it is his opinion against mine he would win.
His sugestion was to just pay the fine and don't tell my insurance company. Should I mention that I work for an insurance company... the same one that insures me
Thanks in advance.
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:20 pm
The section you were charged under is 182 (2) Disobey Sign. That would only apply if there is a sign that says no right turn, or no right turn on a red. (Actually, the correct section for that charge would be 144 (9) for proceed contrary to sign at intersection.) Was there a sign there that prohibits turning right on a red?
Whatsign wrote: I spoke to my uncle who is the Chief of Police in a different town and he said that I would have trouble winning without a real lawyer.
I wouldn't say that's true. (e.g., Paralegals aren't "real" lawyers but usually handle HTA/traffic cases better than lawyers do.) Also, if the officer charged you with disobey sign but no sign was present, even if he testifies "yeah the guy turned without stopping," you still have to be charged under the correct section. They can't just mid-trial switch it from disobey sign to red light - fail to stop. So if the officer testifies that you turned right on a red without stopping, but did not disobey a sign, you would be found not guilty of the charge brought before the court - if you handle it properly (which, in that case, wouldn't be too hard).
Don't think so
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:30 pm
I was exiting hwy 427 south and turned right/west on the Queensway (heading to the mall)
I didn't see a sign but since the light was green I didn't even attempt to stop. Therefore, I'm not sure if there was a sign.
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 9:33 pm
sorry, me again. Is there someone I can call to ask about the sign? It is too far to drive back and check?
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:16 pm
Ever used Google Maps? Look at the address around 1700 The Queensway and with a little toggling left/right at the "street view" you can see the intersection. Unless something changed recently (which I don't think it did), there is nothing that prohibits turning right on a red there. The only sign you may have disobeyed are the lane signs. Which lane were you in when you turned right? If you were in the right or second-right most lane, you should be able to win this case.
If you don't want the hassle of fighting it out in the courts, you can always just pay the fine. That said, it should take at least 9 months for this to come to trial should you decide to fight it, since it happened in the city of Toronto (Etobicoke).
Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2010 10:41 pm
Nice call. I used the street view and there is a sign. It says no turn on red except for green arrow.
What do you think? I had the green arrow but as I said it went from green to red and I had no chance to stop.
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:15 am
Whatsign wrote:Nice call. I used the street view and there is a sign. It says no turn on red except for green arrow.
What do you think? I had the green arrow but as I said it went from green to red and I had no chance to stop.
You had 3 witnesses in your car. Would any one of them be willing to goto court with you?
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 9:41 am
My father is retired so as long as it isn't during golf season I can drag him to court with me
Did I get charged for the wrong thing? Should it be a 144 (9) or does the 182 (2) cover the 144?
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:00 pm
Yep, sign is there. Just saw it now. They could use either 182 (2) or 144 (9), but in this case they're supposed to use 144 (9), as it is more specific. There's only a slight chance that will get the charge dropped, though.
Do you have any friends in Toronto who have a video camera? The traffic light changing suddenly from green to red could be videotaped. Video evidence is easier to submit than photographs, provided the person who took the video is in the court. They'd just have to stand on the corner and take the video.
You could testify in court that you were approaching the green, when, as shown in the video, it changed to red suddenly. You were travelling at a speed that was proper and safe for the conditions and have a full understanding of the limits and operation of your vehicle. You checked the intersection for hazards, did not see any, and saw that you had a green. As you were approaching the stop line, and committed to turning without any reasonable possibility of stopping, the light changed suddenly from green to red and it would have been impossible to stop, so you continued the turn in safety. As Reflections said, have your witnesses back this up.
If you want to fight it, send in the ticket requesting the trial and make sure that you indicate you want the officer present. When the court date arrives, you can file for disclosure and get the officer's notes, so you can get an idea of what he was looking at. Or a paralegal could do all of the heavy work for you.
Keep us posted...
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 3:20 pm
I'm not sure what to do.
With that said, I phoned the number on the back of my ticket and they told me that I could get the 'Notice of Intention to Appear' paper work from my local Court office. The local court would send the doc's on my behalf. (sounds risky but would save me a trip back to TO)
I now have the form (which is one page) but I don't see how to request that the cop appears in court. It just asks for my name, ticket number and a box to check that I will challenge the evidence in court.
BTW, I have tried to phone the city to ask if a yellow light is required by law but I can't get a straight answer. Does anyone know if a yellow is required by law? I submitted a request to get the light fixed; stating that the yellow is burnt-out... too bad I don't have a video of the light without a yellow.
Posted: Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:15 pm
Whatsign wrote:I now have the form (which is one page) but I don't see how to request that the cop appears in court. It just asks for my name, ticket number and a box to check that I will challenge the evidence in court.
"Challenge the evidence" is what you check to request the cop to appear.
Whatsign wrote:I submitted a request to get the light fixed; stating that the yellow is burnt-out... too bad I don't have a video of the light without a yellow.
You do have witnesses, though... plus, keep a copy of all correspondence between yourself & the city regarding the fixing of the light. Ask them to let you know when it is fixed. It's more evidence for you.
You've got a few more days before you have to submit the paperwork to fight the ticket, so you've got time to think over your options. Even if you do decide to fight it, you can always plead guilty prior to the trial - or you can try plea-bargaining to a municipal by-law infraction if they're willing to accept it if you change your mind later.
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:21 pm
I've heard back from the city about the light. I spoke to an employee and the Manager of the Signal Control unit and they have informed me that the light at this intersection has no yellow light and it does go from green to red. They also informed me that they have received several calls about this light as it is a favorite spot for the police to hang-out.
The manager proceeded to tell me that they have had so many complaints that they are thinking about 'upgrading' this light and installing a yellow. For what it is worth both employees told me to fight the ticket and I should win.
On a side note I had a good talk with one of my cop buddies. He thinks that my first two questions should be.... show me your notes where you tested the light... apparently they must test and record their findings before they start issuing any tickets but must of them don't.
The second question is what color was the light when my car entered the intersection... apparently he must witness me going through the light and not just assume based on the traffic flow or the other light.
I was also informed that the officer must explain to me why I was being charged and which law was broken.
So, it seems like a slam-dunk but given my luck I'm still not sure what to do!!!!!!
Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 8:30 pm
With that info, you should be able to win. A quick change from green to red basically leaves a driver with no ability to prepare for it or stop, so the only logical thing was making the turn. (Keep in mind, should you decide to testify, you need to make a point of the fact that you were driving in a reasonable and prudent manner and, at the time the light changed, you were so close to the intersection that it was impossible to stop safely.)
Side note (also irrelevant): Instances like this are why the amber light on traffic signals was invented by Detroit Police Officer William Potts.
Whatsign wrote:The manager proceeded to tell me that they have had so many complaints that they are thinking about 'upgrading' this light and installing a yellow.
That would be interesting evidence if presented in court. Also very helpful.
Whatsign wrote:apparently he must witness me going through the light and not just assume based on the traffic flow or the other light.
That's right. With any offence that deals with a traffic signal, the officer has to observe the signal first (yes he has to see the signal you're facing), and then see the vehicle enter the intersection/disobey the signal. They can't make an inference.
Whatsign wrote:I was also informed that the officer must explain to me why I was being charged and which law was broken.
Some courts are accepting that the charge on the ticket is sufficient to meet that requirement.
But regardless, if you plan on fighting the charge in court, use every avenue of defence available to you. One of them should work.