144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me up

mnstrcck
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144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me up

Unread post by mnstrcck »

Hey guys, wanted to know if anyone has had a similar situation, and if you have any advice:

I was travelling E/B on Dundas St and had a green light to turn S/B on Spadina Ave. There's a no right on red sign, I observed it. I initiated my maneuver, slowly pulling my car into position to make the turn. This intersection is super busy, and there was a group of pedestrians who were painfully slowly making their way across. I looked and saw my light had gone to amber, but there were still pedestrians in my path, although I was now well into the intersection and right S/B lane. I never looked to see if the light turned red as I was keeping my eye on the people [now jaywalking] I didn't want to run over. Anyway, made the turn and was shortly after pulled over. Cop says he's got me doing it on video, and gave me the ticket.

I'll be pleading not guilty and requesting a trial, as well as full disclosure [including the video].

Anyone here have similar cases? Driving in a city like Toronto can be tricky, and certain rules of the road apply [in my case, talking about getting into position when it comes to heavy pedestrian traffic]. Not sure what the word is on that.

Also wondering if anyone here has requested a disclosure with video and if it was provided and in what format etc.

Any other advice would be great too.

Thanks


mnstrcck
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Re: 144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me u

Unread post by mnstrcck »

I took some time today to go over the Ontario Highway Traffic Act and found this portion:

Blocking intersection

145. (1) The council of a municipality may by by-law prohibit a driver or street car operator approaching, at an intersection, a traffic control signal showing a circular green or green arrow indication from entering the intersection unless traffic in front of him or her is moving in a manner that would reasonably lead him or her to believe he or she can clear the intersection before the signal indication changes to a circular red indication. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (1).

Idem

(2) A by-law passed under subsection (1) does not apply to a driver or street car operator who enters an intersection for the purpose of turning to the right or left into an intersecting highway and signals his or her intention to make the turn prior to entering the intersection. R.S.O. 1990, c. H.8, s. 145 (2).

I'm wonder if section two would specifically apply to my situation, as I had began my turn on a green light, with proper turn signal, and was well into my turn before the light went supposedly red [once again, due to pedestrians not abiding by the law]?

It sounds like a grey area that maybe I can use to argue my case?

Any advice would be great!


Stanton
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Re: 144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me u

Unread post by Stanton »

That subsection would only be applicable if you were charged under section 145, not 144.


mnstrcck
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Re: 144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me u

Unread post by mnstrcck »

Stanton, thanks for replying. I was thinking of referring to section 145 to show that I did not have to stop at the marked stop line in order to initiate my turn on a green light [as I did]. And due to the circumstances, in my case a group of pedestrians blocking my view on the right. I had to cautiously enter my turn, well into the intersection, in order to see if my way was clear. And by then I would have been blocking traffic if I remained where I was. Not sure if this makes sense.

To update, I ended up going to an Ontario Court in the GTA and not the one listed on the ticket. The clerk hesitantly accepted my Notice of Intention to Appear because, as she put it, "It was not on yellow paper." She then accepted it, stamped it, and said it will be mailed to the Toronto court. Should I follow up if I don't receive my Notice of Trial in the mail?

Thanks again.


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Re: 144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me u

Unread post by Radar Identified »

If you were across the stop line and well into the intersection when the light was green, then you did not commit an offence. You'd have to testify to that fact, and be credible in your testimony. I can't say if it would work, but if you really didn't enter the intersection on red, you didn't break the law.

If the officer has it on video, then it should be open-and-shut. If you decide to fight the charge, you should indicate that the officer says he has video, and you will need a copy of the relevant video portion if it is going to be used in court.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
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mnstrcck
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Re: 144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me u

Unread post by mnstrcck »

Radar,

Thanks for replying. You've outlined my position on it. And I will most definitely be asking for disclosure of the video for trial [since the officer made such a point about it]. I'm 100% confident in my having initiated the turn on a green, so hopefully I can get access to the video and argue my case well.

Thanks again for the reply.


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Re: 144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me u

Unread post by Radar Identified »

When you get disclosure, post the results here (editing out personal information) and we'll see what we can do to help you put your case together.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca


mnstrcck
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Re: 144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me u

Unread post by mnstrcck »

Just an update on my charges [I forgot to mention a CAIA 3(1)] with some good news:

I received a Notice of Trial in late December, with a court date set for early March. Over the ensuing months I sent three Disclosure Requests [which I wrote up on my own based on the TicketCombat example]. I did not hear anything from the Prosecutor's office, and arrived early on my scheduled court date with copies of all of Disclosure Requests prepared to face opposition from the Crown to my non-disclosure arguments. I checked in with the Prosecutor, and when she asked me what I'm hoping to get, I told her that all I wanted was Disclosure :). She asked when I first requested it and I told her that it was in late December of last year . She noted this and in I went and sat down for a comfy hour before being called up [those courtrooms are really hot].

The Prosecutor, noting two Disclosure Requests dating back to Dec, was approached by the Constable, who mentioned something about receiving the requests only a few days prior. They whispered a bit, and the Prosecutor then withdrew the charges. Just like that. I thanked the Justice, the Prosecutor and the Constable and ran off into the sunset [not exactly].

OBSERVATIONS:

1. A lot of people, about 85%, plead guilty to a lesser charge. Only Paralegals ever mentioned Disclosure issues, and I doubt any civilians on that day were even aware of it. About 50% of Paralegals also plead to a lesser charge. In other words, someone just blew $250.

2. It seems that sending in Disclosure Requests to Old City Hall by registered mail isn't reliable. I was told by a legal advisor that registered mail is usually signed by whomever at the Court House and might not make it to the Prosecutor. Since this was the case with me, I would advise on not spending the money. Fax it in [both fax requests were acknowledged by the Crown] or bring it in person.

3. Adjournments were granted for Disclosure issues only when only one Disclosure Request was made, the Prosecutor withdrew all charges for Disclosure issues where more than one Request was made. I believe this is due to possible Charter motions [section 7, 11d and potentially 11b]. Just speculating though. It worked in my favour, thus no complaints.

4. THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE REPRESENTING THEMSELVES are unfamiliar with the process. Use it to your advantage. A Prosecutor is less willing to battle it out with someone who knows their rights, the Prosecutors' responsibilities, and how to file a Charter Motion. This all considering the severity of the charge, of course, and whether or not the cards play in your favour prior to the trial [ie Disclosure issues].

Thank you to all of the contributors on this site who have guided me along on my first journey of dealing with traffic court. You guys offer a wealth of knowledge on here and have provided me with a concise starting point when it came to educating myself about the legal process in Ontario's POA courts. Essentially, if you are reading this as I would have months ago, your best bet is to start familiarizing yourself with the legal process, your rights, and case law. There's a wealth of information on this forum just a search query away. Good luck and have fun!


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Re: 144 (9) No Right Turn - Had green, pedestrians held me u

Unread post by Radar Identified »

Congratulations. Nice! And thank you for posting the follow-up.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
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