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Improperly Passing a Streetcar

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 2:50 pm
by r0sst3r
I was driving along (eastbound) on the same street as the streetcar, and didn't realize it was stopping. It was in the left-lane, while I was in the right. I continued along, while it came to a stop. As I continued to pass it (instead of stopping right beside it), I see the doors open. That's when I realized I was in Toronto and should have stopped for the streetcar! (I don't drive much in Toronto... and we don't have streetcars in Mississauga.) :?

The streetcar driver honked to alert a cop (who was to my luck, posted on a speedtrap facing the westbound traffic). He ran over and pulled me over, giving me a ticket for improper passing.

My only argument is that I was already beside the streetcar when it had come to a stop.. so shouldn't I continue in order to get out of the way of passengers getting off the streetcar? Do I have any other arguments in my favour?

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 3:40 pm
by liveontheedge
Since the officer was on the other side of the road, do you think he saw what actually happened? if not he will have to rely on the street car driver to testify for the charge to stick. Then the driver and the officer need to show up in court. You have a chance.

If you want to fight the ticket, request disclosure to see what evidence the officer has against you and see if he has any witness for the charge (is the box "witness" checked on the ticket?).

See for a sample of disclosure.

Next time watch for street car when you drive in toronto!

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:07 pm
by r0sst3r
I agree I don't think the cop even saw it. He responded to the streetcar driver, who I think was having a bad day (don't blame him either!)... I hate driving in toronto.

As for the "witness" box...I didn't even notice that box until you made me look for it!... The witness box is marked 'No'.

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 4:51 pm
by liveontheedge
I don't like to drive in toronto either, too many cops these days, no more comfortable and enjoyayable driving, i just have to keep my guard up constantly.

Ok so the cop did not see what happened, then he needs the TTC driver on the witness stand. Disclosure it is. Once you get disclosure you will have a clearer picture of how to proceed with the defense.

Be warned that you still have to prepare your case to the full extent, counting on either witness not showing up does not guarantee a win. Prepare for the worst. Log on Ticketcombat website to learn the defense strategy.

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:03 pm
by r0sst3r
Thanks for the link, liveontheedge! Lots of good tips there. Esp. since this is my first court appearance (and hopefully last), I'll be sure to read it all! I'm still looking for the "Sample of Disclosure" you mentioned. And for some idea on how to request for disclosure?? :? I wonder if it's too late now? Less than a month until my court date... :cry:

I received this ticket on Sept 2008. I am to appear in court on July 2009. That's over 9 months. I just read about "Limitation Periods"... would that apply to me? :P I'm being charged for an offence against HTA 166 (1)... or is it a year limit? I guess I'm fishin' now, huh? :cry:

P.S. Thanks for your prompt responses! :o

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 6:11 pm
by r0sst3r
Oh.. nvm... I found the "Sample of Disclosure"!!!

Posted: Fri Jun 12, 2009 8:58 pm
by liveontheedge
If it is your 1st ticket, it may not affect your insurance rate, you have the option to take the plea bargain from the prosecutor, no point, less fine.

In any case send out the request for disclosure, then you have a month to research and decide what to do at trial.

If the cop and the TTC driver show up you either take the plea bargain or delay the trial by telling the JP that you just find out about the disclosure a few weeks ago and would like an adjournment to obtain disclosure. He will grant it.

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 8:37 am
by r0sst3r
New problem!!! :(

I can't find my letter & stub indicating my trial date & time. I KNOW what the date & time is, because I wrote it in my calendar, but I don't have the actual letter!! Am I required to have it with me when I appear in court? I've looked EVERYWHERE for it!! I think I kept it in a "safe" place... which usually means "hard to find". :(

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:53 am
by Reflections
You don't need the letter. It simply states whats on your PON anyway. Well' you don't need it if you know the courtroom as well..... :shock:

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 10:57 am
by liveontheedge
I don't think you need them when you go to your trial. You can retrieve your offense number, officer's ID# from the court docket posted in front of the court room.

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 11:54 am
by r0sst3r
I do recall reading that I have to be at the OLD CITY HALL... but I don't recall which ROOM in the court!!!! :(

I'm screwed!!

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 12:36 pm
by Radar Identified
No you're not. They'll post the names and times of the cases they're hearing (R. v. r0sst3r, for example) outside each court room. Just ask them where the provincial offences courts are located and you can find your room by looking at the dockets. Takes a little longer but it's no big deal. Eventually you'll find a docket with your name on it, just show up early.

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 1:10 pm
by r0sst3r
*phew* :oops: Ok, thanks!! I'll go an hour early.

Hopefully I find the room. :roll: Are there loads of rooms on different floors, etc?

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 2:43 pm
by r0sst3r
I just wanted to say what an incredible forum this is.. where people actually HELP other people.. and for nothing in return! I wish I could return the favour with advice for the readers on other threads, but my lack of experience renders me practically useless in that regard. Still, I'm a relatively new driver... so when I do have the experience, I'll be sure to share!

Thanks, again to all who have helped me so far!! I will be sure to post the outcome.

I'm just hoping the cop won't show! As he was almost convincing me to fight the ticket instead of paying it off. Cuz after he handed me the ticket and left, when I asked him how many points I'd lose, he said,
"That's 2-3 demerit points. Well you could fight it."
To which I said:
"But I always pay my ticket; I've never taken it to court".
Then he said
"Everyone makes mistakes, you don't have to get persecuted for it!"

So that's when I decided to try taking it to court. I just don't want my insurance rates to go up. (I have 2 speeding tickets already!!... each for going 15 over - no demerit points).

Posted: Tue Jun 16, 2009 3:55 pm
by Reflections
r0sst3r wrote:*phew* :oops: Ok, thanks!! I'll go an hour early.

Hopefully I find the room. :roll: Are there loads of rooms on different floors, etc?
If you're there an hour early, that means you'll sit for a total of 3.....IMHO.