Ontariohighwaytrafficact.com

Hi All,

I am not sure if my case is really a case of " mis-use parking permit" and need some advises on whether i should fight the ticket. Here is what happened:

During the labor day long weekend, I took my parents to diner at a local shopping mall. (my father's hip was broken in 2016 and he's been on wheelchair since, the permit is in his name and I been using the permit to help him for doctor's visit, exams etc).

The restaurant was so busy that day and there was not parking space and plus there is not any handicap parking spot at all in front of the restaurant. I dropped off my father at the door of the restaurant and then had to drove my car to the other side of the plaza where walmart is and used the handicap parking spot there. Closed to the end of the diner, my parents mentioned they need some grocery so that I just went to walmart alone and bought them the grocery. when I was about to drive my car back to the other side of the mall, a police officer show up and asked me the permit. and I explained to him my parents were on the other side of the mall and they were waiting for me in the restaurant, but the officer said that 1)I was not with my father and I have to be with him in order to use the permit. 2) I was about to leave. then the officer gave me one parking ticket of 450$and a notice of the court summon that's coming. I felt so unfair and upset. Any suggestion on how to fight this or whether I should be fight this will be much appreciated.

Reg. 581: ACCESSIBLE PARKING FOR PERSONS WITH DISABILITIES

(2) A disabled person parking permit issued to an individual is not valid when it is displayed on a vehicle if,

(a) the vehicle is not being used to pick up or transport the holder of the permit

Hi Bend, thanks for your reply. it sounds like the holder of the permit must be at the parking spot .

I thought it was ok to use the parking spot as far as my father was in the plaza and I used the permit to pick up him..Am i going to receive demerit points for this or just the fine?

Is there any way to reduce the fine?? I had no intention to use the permit for myself definitely and this is a very expensive lesson to learn.

stockt28 wrote: Wed Sep 05, 2018 11:20 pm

it sounds like the holder of the permit must be at the parking spot .

The person must be with you. But whos to say you didnt leave him there to drive to McDonalds for a coffee then come back and re-park there?

I have Senior parents I live with. And this has happened to me once.

My Dad had an appointment, I went there with him. I went inside. I left to go to a Timmys while I waited. When I came back to pick him up, Yes I parked there

A parking ticket was left when I returned.

I had my dad come with me and talk to the Prosecutor at that time. So I did win but it was because my Dad was with me and he basically Testified that is the case.

thanks Admin.. Sounds like I have to take my father to testify.. I just feel so sorry for my old man as he will have to go thru this with me. it will be such a hassle for him as he's been living on the wheel chair and diaper. I took photos with my parents @ the restaurant and also have the receipts of the restaurant that day. I am not sure if his health condition will allow him to go to the court with me. and If he cannot make it , do you think the prosecutor will take the photos and receipt as evidence?

If you haven't yet requested your trial, bring a letter from your father explaining the situation, including the fact that the space in which you parked was the closest one available. The person at the ticket office may be able to cancel the ticket.

Zatota, thanks for the advice..

I just feel very uncomfortable with the officer. I explained to him at the scene and he is suppose to know the law better. There are many ways he could've used to verify what I said and he just didnot believe me , threw me the tickets and then moved on to the next driver.

The other thing I donot understand is that he asked for my phone # before I left. he looked very suspicious to me. I refused to give him the number and just said " see you in court".. I think I need to find out more details of what he put down on the charge..

I assume by now you've requested a trial. As soon as you have the trial date, request disclosure.

Thanks again Zatota.. they introduce a new process in TORONTO for dispute

https://www.toronto.ca/services-payment ... e-process/

Not sure about the new process and will try to request disclosure.

You're right. Because it's a parking ticket, you won't get disclosure. But you can explain the situation and see what the reviewer says. If you're not happy, you can request a second review.

the reviewer said the same thing: my father must be with me at that spot.. not sure if I should request for the second round of review and also if I will get a summon..

If you can even get a signed letter from your Dad, try to fight it upto: https://www.toronto.ca/services-payment ... y-tribual/

At most you lose your money.

Thanks for the suggestion. Admin.. I had my father's letter with me for the first review. Apparently, the reviewer didnot even look at it as the argument is about whether my dad should be at the spot.. I made it clear to the reviewer that there are many situations such as dropping him off, picking him up and waiting for him etc that I can not be with him all the times. what do you think my chance to win with the second round of review??

Personally I would take the chance for round two, I assume its free and the most you would end up with having to pay the ticket?

I also think that by not allowing someone to not leave a parking spot and risk a FINE, could be Unconstitutional in some way..Dont laugh..Now by far I am not in any way knowledgeable in that field, so this is just my opinion, I feel that it seems like a very rough stance and seems like a Detention. I would try to argue it seems like Detention because it is something that Forces me against being free to make Reasonable choice at Will. Such as leaving to go where I want on demand without worrying about arbitrary consequences.

I agreed with you Admin. Unless the driver himself is the permit holder, there is no way that the driver is always with the permit holder all the time. They already sent me the summon.

If you dropped him off why wouldn't you park in a regular spot and then leave the disabled spot for someone who did not have a able driver? Your did did not have to walk from the spot so you had no reason to park there. That is ultimately who the spot if for

GS

greasespot wrote: Sun Oct 28, 2018 2:56 pm

If you dropped him off why wouldn't you park in a regular spot and then leave the disabled spot for someone who did not have a able driver? Your did did not have to walk from the spot so you had no reason to park there. That is ultimately who the spot if for

GS

I understand where you are coming from. I would like to point out how this way of thinking affects people such as myself and the OP who live or drive around disabled passengers:

What happens after leaving the building with the disabled person? Since I was not allowed to park in that spot. In heavy snow or weather I am to wheel or walk the disabled person to the non-accessible parking spot? Why would I do that? Any idea how difficult that is?

So it really means I cant leave!? So then that means, as I stated above, it is in my opinion that this can become a form of detention for the driver of the disabled person, because "the driver" is at risk of being charged a $500 ticket, if for any reason the driver needs to leave and go elsewhere.

The idea of a handicap parking in the first place is to make it accessible. If a disabled person who doesn't drive, needs a driver to drive them, then by extension I would argue that driver now has the accessible parking spot available to them as well.

Again if you drop them off at the door you can also pick them up at the door. Hence there is no need to use the disabled spot.

No where is the OP saying he parked in the spot and walked his dad out to the door. They dropped him off and picked him up

The front door is not a parking spot. And what does that accomplish anyway? Walking 10 meters?

You are not parking you are dropping off. Then you go park in a regular spot and go in. Then you walk to your car and return to pick up the disabled person. The disabled person is not walking to and from the spot.

That leaves the spot available for the person who actually cannot walk. You as the driver dropping off can walk but chose not to.

That is why the pass holder has to be at the parking spot

GS I got you point. then the main argument should be about " where the pass holder is being pick up and drop off" , Not about "the driver is being with holder at the spot or not" as even if the pass holder is picked up from where he get drop off , there is always moment of that the pass holder not being with the driver like Admin pointed it out earlier. or it will become a detention to driver of the disable person.

BY Now TWO law enforcement officers could not even tell/explain to me the right point, how can a driver have the knowledge to tell what is right and what is wrong ?? After all, my father was with me and he was in the mall.

I advocate Admin's idea of Permit's extension to the driver, esp. in my case, the family who's helping the disable. otherwise the permit is useless for the pass holder.

I received the summon today and it seems this is very serious charge.. Any advice will be greatly appreciated!!

Again you just want to park close to the door. The By being with you part or the permit is to be used when, for example you are driving your father and park in a spot with him because he is not able to walk far to the door.

By dropping him off at the door you have negated the need for the permit as the person left in the car and parking does not need an accessible spot.

The permit is issued to the person and not the car.

GS

GS I already got your point and you donot have to repeat again and again. the permit is issued to person and I can read what written on the back of the permit. "it is for the purpose of transporting the permit holder". I used it for that purpose indeed. My father doesn't speak English and doesn't drive, 1) how would the permit help him w/o extension to the family who helps him?? 2) if the law enforcement officers cannot even explain to me clearly and get to the right point, how do you expect the ordinary driver tell if the use case of the permit is legitimate or not??

I don't know it's pretty clear. When you stop the car and take the keys out and he is with you that is not a misuse. When you drop him off at the door and go park the car he is no longer with you so that is a misuse.

I ask this How did you parking in the disabled spot after you dropped him off benefit him?

As I mentioned earlier, I parked in the disabled spot as there was not disabled parking spot , not even the regular spot available in front of the restaurant. I may have the misconception of that as far as he is with me, I would be able to use the spot as it is for the people in the mall.. I donot disagree with you on that I might've misused the spot.. All really matters not really about "being with the permit holder", is about how to use the spot. My point was that as a driver who is helping my father, how possibly can I justify in the situation like this where the officers could not even get to the right point and explain the law. to be fair, how can a driver be aware of such a illegitimate use case of the permit before he is given a ticket??

The process for parking tickets is different now in the City of Toronto, the new procedure is set out by a new bylaw. At the end of the day, even if you are unhappy with the decisions of the review panel, hearing panel, you can still get your day in court in front of a Justice of the Peace, you just need to jump through those hoops first.

A signed letter isn't really going to be of any benefit. In court, a signed letter is worth nothing as it's not a certified piece of document.

Since your dad is your witness, he must be present.

I would suggest you go to the hearing and bring your dad with you so he can testify.

Worth a shot, but the by-law is quite defined. If the permit holder is not present during off-load or loading of the vehicle then the permit is not valid.

thanks DV

My case is quite similar to Stockt28, I dropped my mom at walmart and park at handicapped spot yesterday afternoon. Then my mom went to the doctor in the mall (the doctor's building is on the right side of mall, about 300 meters from walmart). I was stupid that I did not move the car to other spot. When I left my mom in that building and went to drive my car, a police officer show up and asked me the permit. The officer gave me one parking ticket of 450$ and retained my mom's permit, a notice of the court summon that's coming. Would anybody give me advice what should I do? I am scared about the court summon, will I get more fine ?