Red light fail to stop 144(18) (Allen/Eglinton)

DRPURTOP
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Red light fail to stop 144(18) (Allen/Eglinton)

by: DRPURTOP on
Sun Apr 25, 2010 1:20 pm

I was making a left turn from allen rd onto eglinton ave. I also entered while the light was displying amber.

The officer was parked just east of allen rd. facing south on the noth side of eglinton ave.

Any help is greatly appreciated as my record is clean and I hope to keep it that way.

Regards

p.s. I read in another post that suggested that you quiestion credibility as the officer could not see the light I was facing from his vantage point? I was thinking of using this deffence, has anyone had any success with it?

P.s.s. I originally posted this in someone elses post and I appologize if It is frowned upon for cross posting
(deleted the other post to keep all your responses seperate on this thread, as it will be more advantageous for you... HTA MOD HB)


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by: Radar Identified on
Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:38 pm

DRPURTOP wrote:I read in another post that suggested that you quiestion credibility as the officer could not see the light I was facing from his vantage point?
It could work, but you'll have to prove that he couldn't see the signal.

Best thing to do is request a trial. At least that gives you some options, like plea-bargaining, etc.

Or, if you're sure that you entered on an amber light, this particular case may be of interest to you (it would help you construct a defence):

R. v. Sandhu, 2009
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
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by: DRPURTOP on
Sun Apr 25, 2010 2:56 pm

Radar Identified wrote:
DRPURTOP wrote:I read in another post that suggested that you quiestion credibility as the officer could not see the light I was facing from his vantage point?
It could work, but you'll have to prove that he couldn't see the signal.

Best thing to do is request a trial. At least that gives you some options, like plea-bargaining, etc.

Or, if you're sure that you entered on an amber light, this particular case may be of interest to you (it would help you construct a defence):

R. v. Sandhu, 2009
I'm sure your familiar with that intersection and if you are behind the signal there is no way you can determine at what moment it went red and my proximity to the stop line??

Yes it was yellow upon entry.

Thanks for that case law i'll look into it. :D


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by: Radar Identified on
Tue Apr 27, 2010 12:56 pm

If the officer testifies "I could clearly see the signal," the JP will accept his testimony unless you can show it wasn't realistic. You'll need to prove, in court, that he couldn't see it. You'll need him to testify what his position was, and then show, using photographs or whatever, that he could not have seen the signal facing you from that position. The JP won't just take your word for it, unfortunately. If the officer says "I saw another signal turn to red and realized that his signal must also have turned red," then that stops the trial. "Motion of non-suit."

After you get a trial date, get disclosure of the officer's notes and go from there.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
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by: DRPURTOP on
Tue Apr 27, 2010 3:48 pm

Radar Identified wrote:If the officer testifies "I could clearly see the signal," the JP will accept his testimony unless you can show it wasn't realistic. You'll need to prove, in court, that he couldn't see it. You'll need him to testify what his position was, and then show, using photographs or whatever, that he could not have seen the signal facing you from that position. The JP won't just take your word for it, unfortunately. If the officer says "I saw another signal turn to red and realized that his signal must also have turned red," then that stops the trial. "Motion of non-suit."

After you get a trial date, get disclosure of the officer's notes and go from there.
That's good to know. You also answered the next question I was going to ask regarding when to request disclosure. I had read on another site that it was good to request it before hand as it demonstrated that I was being pro acive to defend the charge should they not get it to me in time??

I also understand that the disclosure request should be sent registered mail. Lastly if I am provede with video evidence from the officers in car camera. would that not be enough to clear me as it would clearly show that the officer could not possibly see the light. Do you know if the court would support google street view as evidence as there are no lights facing south at that intersection as it is one way off the allen express. He would have had to have x-ray vision to be able to tell what colour the light was when i passed the stop line.

Sorry for being so long winded but I really need to win this .

I appreciate all your help thus far.


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by: beleafer81 on
Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:59 am

Your post got me thinking....Does anyone know of any Police departments in Ontario that have in-car dash cams? And if so can you make specific request for that in disclosure?


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by: Radar Identified on
Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:19 pm

DRPURTOP wrote:I also understand that the disclosure request should be sent registered mail. Lastly if I am provede with video evidence from the officers in car camera. would that not be enough to clear me as it would clearly show that the officer could not possibly see the light.
You can also go into the courthouse and hand-deliver the disclosure request. They'll stamp it as "received." Then you have proof in your hand that they received it.

Video evidence... TPS, to my knowledge, does not have any in-car cameras. In your disclosure request, ask for a full copy of the officer's notes, and any photographic/video evidence, including from the officer's in-car camera if it was so equipped. So I don't think you'll get any video, but it's still worth a try.

Google Street View would not be admitted without the consent of the Crown. (Don't bet on it.) The photographer has to be present in the courtroom. Here are some guidelines for submitting photographs:

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic1765.html

You'll have to revisit the scene, survey and photograph it yourself, unfortunately.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
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by: DRPURTOP on
Wed Apr 28, 2010 5:52 pm

Radar Identified wrote:
DRPURTOP wrote:I also understand that the disclosure request should be sent registered mail. Lastly if I am provede with video evidence from the officers in car camera. would that not be enough to clear me as it would clearly show that the officer could not possibly see the light.
You can also go into the courthouse and hand-deliver the disclosure request. They'll stamp it as "received." Then you have proof in your hand that they received it.

Video evidence... TPS, to my knowledge, does not have any in-car cameras. In your disclosure request, ask for a full copy of the officer's notes, and any photographic/video evidence, including from the officer's in-car camera if it was so equipped. So I don't think you'll get any video, but it's still worth a try.

Google Street View would not be admitted without the consent of the Crown. (Don't bet on it.) The photographer has to be present in the courtroom. Here are some guidelines for submitting photographs:

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic1765.html

You'll have to revisit the scene, survey and photograph it yourself, unfortunately.
Thanks.

I'm pretty sure it was equipped as I could clearly see what apperared to be a camera mounted on the windshield with a solid red light illuminated on it.

As for hand delivering the disclosure request: Should it be done when I file for a court date or should I request it after I receive the date in the mail?? (as mentioned before there are conflicting schools of though regarding this)

Any help is appreciated and thanks to all contributors once again.


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by: DRPURTOP on
Sat May 08, 2010 11:37 am

I revisited the scene yesterday and saw that there is in fact a light facing southboung that would have been visible from where the officer was parked on Everden Rd.

However I noticed that the stop line is barely visible to me and I am in a minivan. The officer who would be sitting much lower in a cruiser would probable not be able to see it. Thinking back the guy in front of me braked as he made his left onto eglinton because he must of gotten scared by the officer being parked there. I was already about 75% percent through the intersection when it turned red. Can I still use the R. v. Sandhu, 2009 defence? Do I still have a case ? I must admit im a little intimidated at this point.


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by: Radar Identified on
Sun May 09, 2010 12:10 pm

You can still use R. v. Sandhu. The premise of Sandhu was that the officer could see the signal, and insisted that it was red. The defendant said it was amber when he entered the intersection. The defendant was found not guilty of Red Light - Fail to Stop, because his testimony was rock-solid and unshaken, in that he did go through the intersection, but on an amber light.
DRPURTOP wrote:I was already about 75% percent through the intersection when it turned red.
What matters is if you had crossed the stop line when it turned red - which you had. For Red Light - Fail to Stop, you have to cross the stop line and enter the intersection after the light turns red.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
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