Ontariohighwaytrafficact.com

Date: July 12, 2010 - very important factor!

Police officer pulled me for rolling a stop sign, he said you went over line too far. So, there is a ticket for a Disobeying a stop sign.

Here is the thing, my G2 has expired (yes, I was driving with expired license), so officer gave me a ticket for driving without a license.

I got to DMV the net day to get my license stuff straight. I see that they are giving out a paper saying that Due to strike in 2009, all licenses expired with certain dates are automatically extended until September 2010. My expiration date fell within that timeframe; therefore I still have a valid license.

I take this paper to the prosecutor to get the ticket dropped because it invalid. She said that because I filed both tickets at once, so she cannot drop one (I am guessing that was BS). My courtdate is in July. I am planning on sending the Disclosure Request and during the court arguing that it took them too long to prosecute me.

Am I on the right track? Any advice?

EDIT: Here is what I am requesting in both Disclosure Requests:

o a full copy of the police officers notes;

o a copy of both sides of the officers copy of the ticket (Notice of Offence);

o a typed version of any hand written notes;

o any photographic or video evidence if it exists and the Crown intends to use it at trial;

o witness will say statements;

o witness statements;

o any statements made by the defendant;

o copies of the original notes of such statements; and

o the names and address, occupation and criminal record of the persons providing such information.

Just so you're aware, most of what is listed in your blanket disclosure request likely doesn't apply to your case, so don't be surprised when you only get a couple pieces of paper with the officer's notes on it.

Yeah, I understand that. I am just trying to make it look bigger. Hopefully it will overwhelm the prosecutor

akarimov wrote:

Yeah, I understand that. I am just trying to make it look bigger. Hopefully it will overwhelm the prosecutor

It won't. I personally think you're better off asking for information relevant to the offence since it makes you look more knowledgable.

Stanton wrote:

It won't. I personally think you're better off asking for information relevant to the offence since it makes you look more knowledgable.

Agreed. In fact, a clerk in the Prosecutor's office said EXACTLY that. They get dozens of disclosure requests every day and they've seen these cookie-cutter, non-specific requests hundreds of times before. This says to them that the defendant did an internet cut-and-paste and did not research the subject adequately. When they get a specific, tailored request, they get a little more wary. Paralegals and lawyers make specific requests, why should ours be any different?

Thanks for the tip. I will take out the requests about witnesses when I send the request via registered mail

Take out the request for "statements made by the defendant" and "copies of original notes of statements" and "names, address and occupation" parts of it, too. The rest should be good to go.

Thanks for the tip

My court date coming up. I got two charges (1) Driving without improper license and (2) Disobey stop sign

First charge: I actually had license at that time. It was extended due to the DMV strike that took place prior year.

I am not sure how the court should. Here is what I think:

- Joe Blow, come forward

A: Your Worship, I would like to ask for an adjournment of this matter to another date because prosecution did not provide me with an adequate disclosure in timely manner. Requested by both Fax and Registered mail.

- Arraignment – Detailed charges. Do you plead Guilty or Not?

Prior to entering a plea Your Worship, I move that these proceedings be stayed on the grounds that adequate disclosure was not provided in timely manner. In addition, there is an unreasonable delay in prosecution.

Is that correct? Also, I would appreciate tips on interrogation - if it comes down to that.

Have you received no disclosure or is something missing? Your oral motion sounds correct to request a stay, assuming the Crown hasn't provided something they should have. As for a stay based on unreasonable delay, have you filed any forms? Or are you just trying an oral motion?

As for the cross examination it's hard to provide specific tips without a better idea of the allegations. For a stop sign offence, you'll basically want to ask the officer about sign placement, presence of a visible stop line, their line of sight (i.e. clear view of the intersection) and how they determined you didn't stop.

I can't tell from your post if you're aware of this or not, but if your case gets adjourned you are not arraigned on that date. It's only if your adjournment is denied that they proceed with arraignment and you have to enter a plea.

With respect to your oral arguments for a stay based on insufficient disclosure (a s. 7 argument) and unreasonable delay (s. 11(b)), I think you are unlikely to be successful if you just ask orally and file a written motion w/ factum and supporting case law. The reason being that the onus is on you as the person who brings the motion to satisfy the JP as to what the law surrounding s. 7, 11(b), and 24(1) (for the stay of proceedings) is and how it applies to your particular situation. You can't just show up and say, "I'd like that please" without laying the groundwork first.

That's just my opinion, I'm not trying to discourage you from trying it, I'm just saying be prepared for trial if they deny the motion.

Sorry for not being clear. I requested the disclosure via fax and registered mail. Did not get anything back. From my understanding, I don't have to file anything else until the courtdate, correct?

So, I did some reading. I need to file a 11b motion before the courtdate.

My courtdate is on 8th of July. Is it too late to file?

Rules of Criminal Procedure say 15 days minimum.

business days?

Good question...not sure, I think just calendar days.

Well. its too late anyways

Gonna have to do without the motion. In case, that does not work, could you give me an idea of how to lead the interrogation?

You mean the cross examination? That's more an art than a science and how it goes depends largely on how the prosecutor's examination n chief goes so im not really sure what i can say by way of general advice.

According to this case,

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/20 ... cj150.html ,

you can make the motion at the trial without providing notice. I haven't seen anyone on this site recommend this method so I may be wrong. The case is a relatively short read through, but it basically states that you don't have to provide notice because your rights are violated by the local prosecutor, not the province or the gov't of Canada.

Please note however that the defendant was denied his motion and then later appealed and was found to be right, so you should bring a copy or two with you if you decide to do this as the prosecutor will likely attempt to use everything in his arsenal to stop you.

bring a copy of what?

@Simon Borys

Thanks for you help

A copy of the case I linked to, just print it out. It will prove to the prosecutor and JP that you are allowed to make the motion. A printout of section 109 of the Courts of Justice Act (the reason that the JP initially rejected the motion) wouldn't hurt either.

I intend to do this at my trial in August, but you might want to hear from the more experienced members here before attempting it.

Sounds good, thanks.

Here is another questions, my court is at 3pm and I want to try to change it to 8am. If I am lucky and manage to do it, is it going to affect my ability to file 11b motion? Since, technically I moved the court date.

stay on one thread, below deleted an added onto this thread

akarimov wrote:

I got two Notices of Trial with two different offense numbers. Do I have to make two versions 11B applications for each offense?

Also, on the 11B application is says that I have to include the copies of the ticket. Don't they take the ticket when you request the trial?

Hi,

My courtdate was moved due to prosecutor not providing me with a disclosure. Because of this mistake, my court is now 17 months since I got charged. My next step would filing 11B motion.

I am a little confused on which forms to use. Can I use Affidavit form and Form 4F? I attached the copies of the forms, please look it over please to see if I got the right ones.

Thank you

EphOph wrote:

According to this case,

http://www.canlii.org/en/on/oncj/doc/20 ... cj150.html ,

you can make the motion at the trial without providing notice.

This case, R v Vellone, is currently under appeal by the crown at the Ontario Court of Appeal. It has not been heard yet. If you're going to use it you might want to make sure it's hasn't been overruled by that time.

I tried to create a new thread, but it got added to my old thread.

Anyways, can anyone take a look at my forms please

akarimov wrote:

I tried to create a new thread, but it got added to my old thread.

There's a few reasons for that:

1. When people are trying to follow your story, chasing down multiple threads to get the big picture makes it much more difficult.

2. Without the full picture accessible to them (ie. one thread), people are likely to give you incomplete, inaccurate or just plain wrong advice.

3. By creating new threads for the same ticket, people may start asking you questions that you've already answered in the old thread.

In other words, it makes it easier for you, and easier for others, to follow your case and give you concise and clear advice if you stick to one thread. When you post to your old thread, everyone can see that there's a new post that's been made and they'll click on it to see what's up.

I got some questions before I file for 11B. Here is the timeline so far:

July 2010 - Charged

Aug 2010 - First attendance (meeting with the prosecutor)

July 2011 - Courtdate

Jan 2012 - New courtdate appointed by the prosecutor because disclosure wa not provided.

Will I have any trouble with my 11B?

thanks

below cut from another thread and added to proper thread, by HTA moderator

akarimov wrote:

I am following the process of filing 11B from ticketcombat.com. Should I include:

1. Copy of disclosure request

2. Proof of request

3. Notice of trial

4. Copies of the ticket

Do I include those with Affidavit or Form 4F or both?

Should easily get the stay based on the 11B.

Thank you! About the forms ... Can anyone write a list of documents that go with Affidavit and Form 4F. That would be greatly appreciated