Ontariohighwaytrafficact.com

Hello OHTAers.

Quick question for you.

I have requested a trial date for a speeding charge in Toronto (2700 Eglinton court).

My question - should I request disclosure now or wait until I'm assigned a court date.

Thank you for your advice.

Noah

You should request the disclosure when you get your notice of trial. Ticket combat has a great sample disclosure request. I'd just leave out the phone number so they have to communicate with you in writing.

thank you,

can anyone tell me - is it even possible to request disclosure before receiving the letter with the notice of trial date?

Is there a tactical reason not to do so?

Thank you.

Noah

When a person sends in the request to challenge the evidence it obviously goes to the court. When the court makes up the trial notice they send a copy to the officer at the same time. So then the officer seeing the trial notice will now have to go thru the process of putting together the disclosure and submitting it back to court. In the meantime you request disclosure to the court, court now has it from the officer and can in turn send it to you. Simple as cutting down a few trees.

I think you have to give them the date and the courtroom in addition to the constable's name so they can contact the right prosecutor. For that reason, I'd wait until you get the notice. I'll give you something to do while waiting for your trial...

Scan your ticket and keep it safe. You never know when you'll lose the paper copy. If you have all of your documents scanned, you can at least reprint whatever's missing.

FiReSTaRT wrote:

Scan your ticket and keep it safe. You never know when you'll lose the paper copy. If you have all of your documents scanned, you can at least reprint whatever's missing.

Yah! And then you can link it to a traffic forum and canvas the members to send lots and lots of money to pay for the team of high-priced lawyers you've hired (hint, hint!)

Birthdate in 1903? Holy *EDIT* you age well.

You were born on 33-rd of March? How does that work?

Calendar must've been different way back then.

Couple of points. Disclosure requests are made to the Crown, not the court. I strongly urge people to request disclosure right away. Some jurisdictions schedule trials quickly, within two months and have trials just a couple of months later. With four months from offence to trial, this doesn't give enough time to request disclosure and follow-up.

Second point, to prepare an 11b argument you should clearly indicate wanting to deal with the charge as soon as possible. Requesting disclosure and requesting and early trial date shows that you are diligent about wanting to defend against the charge and that you have not waived any of your rights under the Charter, specifically your right to a speedy trial. Silence is considered neutral, meaning you not doing anything until the trial is scheduled does not count against you. But it also doesn't count for you. If you were actively seeking disclosure and requesting an early trial date, the court must acknowledge that and it puts more pressure on the Crown to justify the delay. Otherwise there is a danger that your inaction can be interpreted as satisfaction with the pace.

ticketcombat wrote:

I strongly urge people to request disclosure right away.

Thanks Ticketcombat.

Love your site by the way.

I shall request disclosure from the prosecution right away.

I can't actually read the officer's name - so I assume I can just give them the offence notice number and they can figure that out.

Does anyone here know the fax number for prosecutor's office at 2700 Eglinton Avenue W in Toronto?

Anyone know the time trials usually take at this location?

Cheers,

Noah

Thanks for the comments on my site. I appreciate it.

Toronto fax numbers are on my site (under Step 4 Disclosure of course!):

Offence number begining with "4862 999 00 XXXXXXXX-00"

2700 Eglington Avenue West

tel: 416-338-6882

fax: 416-338-7322

Trial should be about one year from offence date, give or take.

I recall reading about a strategy of not requesting disclosure at all! Trial by ambush I think they called it. Then ask for dismissal if ALL relevant documents aren't produced by the crown at trial. Any thoughts?

Hi there,

I'm actively following this site and ticketcombat to defend my charge for careless driving (HTA 130). These are great material and all are FREE... Thank you to all of you for taking the time to help people like us. It's also good for democracy in general if people know their rights and understand the law.

I had a trial date today and it has been adjourned because of inadequate disclosure. The prosecutor was determined to go to trial as the cop and witnesses showed up today but he couldn't as I had asked for a complete and specific disclosure as per ticketcombat's sample.

The judge (Justice of Peace) agreed that the Crown must provide both sides of officer's tickets however to my great surprise he discouraged me for a pre-trial interview. He also mentioned that it's a criminal offence if I try to persuade or threaten the witnesses in any way (I already knew that by reading ticketcombat website).

He also mentioned that the Crown can only produce information that they possess and he also said the Crown doesn't have to provide address, occupation and criminal record of witnesses.

I'm not able to find the law itself or gazette that mandates the Crown to provide such information for HTA violation. I understand it's my decision whether I should go for a pre-trial interview or not once I see that information but the Crown is legally obligated to provide such information when the defendant is specifically asking for it.

Please share your knowledge and experience and let me know am I missing something here?

Thank you all for responding...

Andy

A couple of points. You may not always get the criminal record. It speaks to the credibility of the witness(es) but they may not have a criminal record! If the police did not note what the occupation of the witness is than they would not have that either. But they definitely will have the name and contact info.

Be extremely careful with the pre-trial interview. It may not be your intention to tamper with a witness but you must also be PERCIEVED to be neutral. They may view your actions or questions differently than you. Always ask the Crown to attend the interview with you to be safe. And bring a witnesses with you as well.

You can ask your questions in writing if you are uncomfortable with a face to face. There is also "will say" statements of what they heard/saw/did. You've got options.

The point is you want to prepare your defence IN ADVANCE of your trial by knowing what the witnesses saw. You don't want to be caught at trial with information or testimony that was unexpected.

1 - I guess I should be more specific. My question is does the Crown has a legal obligation to find if the witness(es) have a criminal record? I don't think Crown has even checked whether the witness(es) have a criminal record or not and they are arguing it's irrelevant information. I understand if they don't have a criminal record then no criminal record exists and therefore no record will be provided but is it fair to expect a response like "The Crown has checked criminal records for witness(es) and no criminal record exists" from them?

2 - The Crown has provided me names of witness(es) but they have striked out the contact info. Is the Crown legally obligated to provide that as well when I have specifically requested it in a disclosure? Or it depends on Justice of Peace to rule whether the Crown should be providing such information or not? The Crown has argued it's irrelevant information to my defence.

If the Crown doesn't provide me above info, is it valid to argue that this is "inadequate disclosure" to prepare my defence and henceforth I cannot go to trial without that required info. Can Justice of Peace give a ruling this is irrelevant info to prepare a defence for a trial?

Thanks again for your insights...

Andy

1. The issue will be why you want this information. If you have reason to believe they provided false statements, maybe an insurance fraud ring for example, the criminal history speaks to the credibility and reliability of the witness's testimony. On the other hand, if it's a soccer mom who just happened to witness an accident, then it is less likely you will get the information.

The legal basis for this is section 7 of the Charter where you area asking for information that will bring the defence's position into full force and effect. You have to justify why you want it and exploit this lack of disclosure in your stay application.

2. You are arguing that the witness statements are not complete enough for you. You have more questions that you need to ask regarding what they saw, where they were standing, what they were doing, etc. Remember My Cousin Vinny and the guy making "instant grits"? That's why you want to know the info before trial so you can prepare your defence. But you should at the very least have some idea what kind of additional information you want to ask BEFORE trial and indicate that to the justice to show why this is so relevant and pertinent to your defence that it cannot wait until trial.

Thank you for taking the time to respond... A couple more quick questions…

1 – Is it valid and logical to argue that the information regarding criminal records for witness(es) is material and unless I have them, I cannot know if it's relevant to my case or if I need them. It could influence the outcome of the case and therefore the Crown is required to disclose it. Is it a good idea to take a printout of R. v. Stinchcombe, [1991] ruling from CanLib and highlight some points of the ruling about disclosure so that the Justice of Peace knows exactly what I'm referring to? I think if I give a printout to the judge, he can read it on the spot and disclosure ruling is very handy to him right away. Do you think it would help? Can the judge make an argument such that R. v. Stinchcombe, [1991] ruling is applicable to criminal charges like impaired driving but not quasi-criminal charges like Careless driving charge (HTA 130)? Is it something the Crown has to give or the judge can also provide a ruling not to disclose it to the defendant based on above argument?

2 - I've started following up ticketcombat website and this website from last week only. If I haven't asked for a speedy trail, what timeframe typically I would need to request a stay for proceedings? If I send three faxes in next three months then is it sufficient to show the judge that Im making all my efforts to make a full answer and defend my charge? I've a trial date adjourned to 10th August. Is 18 month timeframe still sufficient between an offence date and trial date to make an argument for a stay or they also look for other things? I understand 18 months timeframe isn't hard and fast but just would like to get your perspective.

3 - A general question... It would be nice to know if the defendant is feeling nervous to make arguments, can (s)he make arguments with the judge in writing?

Thanks for your help…Much appreciated…

Andy

from

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com ... ight=#7580

littlepeep wrote:

Hello all,

Received a speeding 81 in a 60 zone contrary to HTA s.128 on April 16th.

Requested a trial.

Requested disclosure.

Written letter to crown 6 weeks later asking for early date, reiterating request for disclosure.

Notice of Trial arrived June 18, 2009.

Trial is scheduled for April Fools day (love that) - on April 1st, 2010.

Do I have any hope of an 11b argument - <11.5 months from offence date to trial.

Still no disclosure yet.

Thanks,

NLP

from locked thread of

http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic1949.html

littlepeep wrote:

Hello

I've been charged with speeding under s.128 (81 km/h in a 60 km/h zone) of the HTA in Ontario.

I've made 2 requests for disclosure. Nothing received first time, received front of ticket and illegible notes on 2nd.

Requested but not received owners manual for Lidar unit.

Requested many other things as noted on Ticketcombat web site.

I've written again to the prosecutor requesting the missing material, asked them to review and release the disciplinary/criminal history of the officer in the spirit of McNeil. Nothing more heard.

Ticket date was April 11th, 2009 - Trial is scheduled for April 1st, 2010.

I intend to make Section 7 and Section 11b motions.

Here's my questions:

Can I get the affidavits commissioned elsewhere and just serve the crown and file with the court the copy that notes the crown's acceptance - or do I need to go to the court first to issue the document first (like I would if I had a motion and needed to get the date from the court before I could serve it on the crown).

Do I need to file proof of service of AG of Ontario and AG of Canada with the court? (the fax confirmation is all I have)

Thanks,

NLP

File both Section 7 & Section 11B at least 3 weeks before the trial. The crown might argue that the disclosure can be sent out before the new court date (s/he will try to adjourn), then you can argue 11B. 11.5 months is reason enough to stay the ticket by itself FYI. 10 months is a minimum.