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Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 10, 2017 11:32 pm 
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Hi I know I'm in big trouble so just trying to prepare myself as best as I could. In Oct I was pulled over while driving to a job interview with expired license plates and Ireins had just recently frozen my insurance as I could no longer afford the payment. I had been out of work since start of the year and was unable to renew my plates in May (the renewal date) or keep up on insurance payments.

I explained this to the officer and he told me he's going to let me off without a ticket but that I should immediately have my insurance unfrozen. I did that immediately after he left, calling my insurance agent and reinstating my insurance that very day.

Today I received a Summon notice from Courts for April 5th where I'm being charged with the following:

(1) Drive motor vehicle, no current validation on plate - Highway Traffice Act s. 7(1)(c)(i)
(2) Operate motor vehicle without insurance - Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act s. 2(1)(a)
(3) Produce False Evidence - Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act s. 2(3)(b)

certain copies of and/or original books, records and documents, and without limiting the generality of the foregoing, including the following

- Certified Documents - Ministry of Transportation of Ontario (driving record / VIN / plate by date search etc)
- Allstate Insurance Company - Representative / Business Records / Policy Information / Insurance card / Other insurance related documents
-officers notes
-this notice

My date is set for April 5th, 2017. Is the summon to meet with the prosecutor or with the Justice of Peace? Should I plead not guilty and hope to god for a plea deal?

It was the only time I drove my car and it just to get to the job interview all the way in Scarborough as it was not easily accessible by TTC/transit...

I desperately need my car in order to keep my current job not to mention my license and I know my insurance will skyrocket...PLEASE ANY INFO WILL HELP, I've never been through anything like this before and have no one really to turn to. I'm assuming at best I'm looking at a $5000 fine for which I'll have to go on payments for as I dont have that much at the moment sadly.


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:02 am 
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Write down all that you believe the leo said.

When leo say stuff like this prosecutor does like.

When it happened to me the charge was just dropped at early resolution.

I don't write a long story. It is important that you write all down.

Cheers
Viper1

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use at your own risk"


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 8:09 am 
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Based on your charges, it sounds like there's a bit more to this story that you've left out.

You temporarily stopped coverage on your vehicle, kept the invalid insurance card, and tried to pass off the invalid card to the officer as if you had insurance?


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:59 pm 
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bend wrote:
Based on your charges, it sounds like there's a bit more to this story that you've left out.

You temporarily stopped coverage on your vehicle, kept the invalid insurance card, and tried to pass off the invalid card to the officer as if you had insurance?


I didn't have the insurance slips (pink slips??) in the car. I was supposed to print my copies to keep in the car when I originally bought it in 2015 but never did out of sheer stupidity and laziness of not having a printer. I had a digital copy of the cards in my email from my All State rep that I emailed the police officer at the spot once I couldn't find them after I realized I had never printed them off. I was a nervous wreck when he pulled me over for the plates as I knew that what it was for but he came back and spoke with me about my insurance and it dawned I had frozen it to just fire/theft. He didnt give me a ticket and watched me pull into a parking spot and get on the phone asap. I have coverage documents showing my insurance was turned back on that very day.

I have emails from the YMCA job center for that day that I was pulled over for my interview time/location as well.

Like I said I know I messed up and its on me but what can I do to best limit the damage now at my summon. Do I plead guilty or ask for discourse/more time? I'm pretty sure the case against me is pretty tight unless the officer put in his notes he was letting me off with a warning?

I appreciate your replies. The officer who served me my summon told me to not "lose sleep over this" but I already am. The $5k minimum is something that will take me a long time to pay off with my current salary.


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:05 pm 
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viper1 wrote:
Write down all that you believe the leo said.

When leo say stuff like this prosecutor does like.

When it happened to me the charge was just dropped at early resolution.

I don't write a long story. It is important that you write all down.

Cheers
Viper1



Thank you for replying. I will write everything down that the LEO said and did. By early resolution do you mean the first time you were summoned to the court? This happened in Oct and all of a sudden I got the notice this week and its been a gut punch out of nowhere.


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:25 pm 
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I just looked through my emails and it turns out I did send an email to my All State Rep about having my insurance reinstated on Oct 1st as I started getting offers to interview around but he told me to hold off till I got my battery fixed (it was dead due to car not being used for months) and I asked him in the follow up email if the coverage can be reinstated the day of, which he confirmed it is. I have another email sent to him on the day of my interview asking for coverage to be reinstated but it appears when I sent the LEO my information I wasn't covered. I know the mistake is still on me but I am going to print off these emails and take them with me to my summon or it won't make a difference as I wasn't under coverage according to the LEO's system?


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 12:16 am 
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When you show up to court, it is a summons date, NOT your trial date.

You should plead NOT GUILTY and request a trial date and a copy of disclosure (officers notes).

Once you get the dislcosure you should hire a lawyer because the charges a very very serious and not only is the fine huge, but your insurance rates will sky rocket as well.

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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 1:51 am 
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Your first post talks about a desperate times call for desperate measures type deal where you took your chances driving without insurance in order to get to a job interview. It didn't seem in that post you were under any other impression other than you were not insured. There was no transit so you rolled the dice. It was the only time you had driven.

When asked about the charge that wasn't talked about in your post, specifically whether or not you provided proof of insurance knowing it wasn't even valid:

insuranceidiot wrote:
I was a nervous wreck when he pulled me over for the plates as I knew that what it was for but he came back and spoke with me about my insurance and it dawned I had frozen it to just fire/theft


This isn't exactly the impression I got from reading your first post.

In your third post, you are now saying you had correspondence with your insurance provider on the day you were pulled over, where you asked your insurance coverage to be reinstated? Was this by any chance while you were pulled over? Your previous post talks about you unknowingly providing invalid proof of insurance and only remembering once the officer questioned you about it. Even after you had asked your provider that very day to reinstate coverage?


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 2:26 pm 
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You need to ask your insurance company for letter that gives the specific date AND time your insurance coverage was re-instated. The time is very very important. If the time is at or before the time on the ticket then the prosecution will have to drop that ticket for not having insurance as you now have proof that you did have insurance. However if the time of re-instatement is even 1 minute after the time on the ticket then you will most likely be charged with driving without insurance.

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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:07 pm 
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jsherk wrote:
You need to ask your insurance company for letter that gives the specific date AND time your insurance coverage was re-instated. The time is very very important. If the time is at or before the time on the ticket then the prosecution will have to drop that ticket for not having insurance as you now have proof that you did have insurance. However if the time of re-instatement is even 1 minute after the time on the ticket then you will most likely be charged with driving without insurance.



The thing is the LEO never wrote me a ticket just told me that he is advising me not to operate a vehicle without insurance (I can't remember his exact words but it was to that effect) and that he was letting me off with a warning for both plates/insurance. I even have his email address still saved in my phone from the time I emailed him a copy of my insurance which I thought was valid at the time. I immediately called my insurance agent afterwards to reinstate it.

My summon doesn't mention a time, just says "on or about the 21st day of October in the year 2016"...

Am I facing criminal charges? Such a stupid mistake to commit and have ones life turned upside down.


Last edited by insuranceidiot on Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:24 pm 
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bend wrote:
Your first post talks about a desperate times call for desperate measures type deal where you took your chances driving without insurance in order to get to a job interview. It didn't seem in that post you were under any other impression other than you were not insured. There was no transit so you rolled the dice. It was the only time you had driven.

When asked about the charge that wasn't talked about in your post, specifically whether or not you provided proof of insurance knowing it wasn't even valid:

insuranceidiot wrote:
I was a nervous wreck when he pulled me over for the plates as I knew that what it was for but he came back and spoke with me about my insurance and it dawned I had frozen it to just fire/theft


This isn't exactly the impression I got from reading your first post.

In your third post, you are now saying you had correspondence with your insurance provider on the day you were pulled over, where you asked your insurance coverage to be reinstated? Was this by any chance while you were pulled over? Your previous post talks about you unknowingly providing invalid proof of insurance and only remembering once the officer questioned you about it. Even after you had asked your provider that very day to reinstate coverage?


Oct 1st I wrote to my representative asking for reinstatement and he told me to hold off as my car was just sitting there idle. Oct 21st I got pulled over and emailed my officer my pink slips - in my head I thought I was covered as my official policy was till Nov 18th,2016 and I remembered emailing the rep on Oct 1st forgetting that we had decided to hold off as coverage can be reinstated same day and I just have to get in touch with him on the day I need to drive. The YMCA interview came up really quickly out of blue and I forgot all about my insurance.

When pulled over, I emailed the officer my slips, he checked it on his system, came back and advised me to not be driving uninsured, letting me off this time (I can't remember his exact words but "i'm advising you to not be operating a vehicle uninsured or something) and I immediately emailed/call my agent for reinstatement. The LEO didn't write me a ticket for either the plates or insurance.


October was a very tough month for me and I wasn't in a healthy place of mind from a mental health perspective but I know the Courts don't care about that and it will do me no good bringing that up. I know I've messed up, I just don't know what I'm in for now. When the other poster mentioned this is very very serious, I'm immediately thinking criminal charges?? jail?? I can't afford a lawyer so I'm feeling pretty hopeless at this point now. Is there a chance the prosecutor offers a deal, I've never been in trouble before of any kind in my life but I'm sure loads of ppl in similar situation have been the same and they threw the book at them.


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 3:44 pm 
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It does not matter what the police officer told you on the side of the road. He has now written the tickets (summons) and it is out of his hands now. Only the prosecutor can withdraw the charges. Even if you get the officer to admit under oath that he did say that, it still does not matter as he changed his mind and wrote the tickets.

As I said before the FIRST thing you need to do is immediately contact your insurance company and get a letter that states the day and time your insurance was re-instated. Actually if you have a NEW pink slip that shows a the recent start date that would probably be okay as well. If it was re-instated on October 21st, then most likely you will get off on the two CAIA tickets. If it was not reinstated until the 22nd or later then you are in trouble and should contact a lawyer.

As well, as I said earlier, when you show up to court, it is a summons date, NOT your trial date. You should plead NOT GUILTY and request a trial date and a copy of disclosure (officers notes).

None of the charges are criminal charges. One is HTA Highway Traffic Act and the other two are CAIA Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act.

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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:18 pm 
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jsherk wrote:
It does not matter what the police officer told you on the side of the road. He has now written the tickets (summons) and it is out of his hands now. Only the prosecutor can withdraw the charges. Even if you get the officer to admit under oath that he did say that, it still does not matter as he changed his mind and wrote the tickets.

As I said before the FIRST thing you need to do is immediately contact your insurance company and get a letter that states the day and time your insurance was re-instated. Actually if you have a NEW pink slip that shows a the recent start date that would probably be okay as well. If it was re-instated on October 21st, then most likely you will get off on the two CAIA tickets. If it was not reinstated until the 22nd or later then you are in trouble and should contact a lawyer.

As well, as I said earlier, when you show up to court, it is a summons date, NOT your trial date. You should plead NOT GUILTY and request a trial date and a copy of disclosure (officers notes).

None of the charges are criminal charges. One is HTA Highway Traffic Act and the other two are CAIA Compulsory Automobile Insurance Act.



Thank you jsherk for replying and providing detailed info, and sorry for not understanding it clearly the first time. I have emailed my rep requesting the above and yes I should have it for Oct 21st as on the phone on the day of he told me "okay you are reinstated and good to go". If the LEO wrote the tickets how come I never received a copy or even knew I was in for it?

Forgive me for not understanding completely but what do you mean by "a New pink slip that shows a recent start date"? How recent would be okay. From Oct 21st to Nov 18th I had reinstated my coverage. Then took it back to just fire/theft till January 1st, 2017 in a parking spot where it still sits.

After I plead not guilty and request a trial date is there a chance of early resolution meeting with prosecutor? Am I able to request that or its up to the prosecution? Should I take a reduced charge if offered since I can't afford a lawyer? All these questions are burning through my mind.


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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Just get a letter from insurance that says you were FULLY covered (liability, accident benefits) for that specific vehicle (include VIN) on the 21st and that will be enough and dont worry about pink slip.

You will most likely meet with the prosecutor before you get up before the Justice of the Peace. You do not want to admit anything beyond "I was covered that day" You probably want to avoid mentioning the part about maybe not being covered until you called after you were pulled over. I am not telling you to lie, just telling you to be careful what you say. You will start by presenting the letter to the prosecutor and saying that you were indeed covered on that day. With that letter, you would be able to beat BOTH the CAIA insurance charges and with that letter the prosecutor should agree to drop them both.

If prosecutor does NOT offer to drop them, then you should just say you plan to plead not guilty and would like a trial date and disclosure.

If the prosecutor does offer to drop them, then you can decide whether you want to just plead guilty to the other one or to plead not guilty and take it to trial.

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Re: Summon, driving w/out insurance, first time offense
PostPosted: Sun Mar 12, 2017 6:33 pm 
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jsherk wrote:
Just get a letter from insurance that says you were FULLY covered (liability, accident benefits) for that specific vehicle (include VIN) on the 21st and that will be enough and dont worry about pink slip.

If the prosecutor does offer to drop them, then you can decide whether you want to just plead guilty to the other one or to plead not guilty and take it to trial.


Understood. I am just going to say "I was covered that day" and repeat that till I sound like a broken record. I don't think taking the expired plates to trial will do me much good as the MTO records show they expired in May so I should just plead guilty to that unless its worth going to trial in hopes they dismiss it since its a first time offense?. I'm guessing the fine for that is much less severe but the impact on insurance is still significant?

Thanks for your responses jsherk...I'm a little less freaked out today than on Fri.


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