My court date is nearing at old city hall at appeals court. iwhats going to happen and what do i do? do I present my certificate of offence and point out to the judge the fine was incorrect, I did not appear and am now appealing on the grounds the Justice of the peace erred and failed to quash the ticket on the basis of the certificate not being properly examined and is not complete and regular on its face, and then submit the London V Young decision as my grounds for appeal. do i also submit that i had requested disclosure on two occasions and the prosecution failed to provide me with these court documents and lastly bring up that when i paid the fine in order to appeal it was also incorrect and the court clerk didnt even know which amount was too be paid? whats the procedure in court-are they going to have me make a opening argument per say?
My court date is nearing at old city hall at appeals court.
iwhats going to happen and what do i do?
do I present my certificate of offence and point out to the judge the fine was incorrect, I did not appear and am now appealing on the grounds the Justice of the peace erred and failed to quash the ticket on the basis of the certificate not being properly examined and is not complete and regular on its face, and then submit the London V Young decision as my grounds for appeal.
do i also submit that i had requested disclosure on two occasions and the prosecution failed to provide me with these court documents and lastly bring up that when i paid the fine in order to appeal it was also incorrect and the court clerk didnt even know which amount was too be paid?
whats the procedure in court-are they going to have me make a opening argument per say?
Unfortunately that case law is not valid any more, the fine does not have to be correct on a traffic ticket. You have no grounds for the appeal, the Justice will not quash the ticket for this offense. If you have any questions about an appeal, a licensed paralegal should be able review this for you at no charge and give you the right answers.
Unfortunately that case law is not valid any more, the fine does not have to be correct on a traffic ticket. You have no grounds for the appeal, the Justice will not quash the ticket for this offense.
If you have any questions about an appeal, a licensed paralegal should be able review this for you at no charge and give you the right answers.
Chris Conway
Retired Toronto Traffic Officer, Hit & Run Squad Detective,
Breathalyzer Tech, Radar/Highway Patrol
Licenced Paralegal
No longer valid? London v. Young was a decision by the Ontario Court of Appeal, so either they or the Supreme Court would have to overturn it, no? As recently as June 18 of this year it was still valid (R. v. Monahan). When was it reversed? If you have a link to the case law that overturned London v. Young, that would be great.
No longer valid? London v. Young was a decision by the Ontario Court of Appeal, so either they or the Supreme Court would have to overturn it, no? As recently as June 18 of this year it was still valid (R. v. Monahan). When was it reversed? If you have a link to the case law that overturned London v. Young, that would be great.
Particular ..I can see that. However--my case is cut and dry- the officer issued me a certificate of offence for 32km/h over the posted limit. he then fined me $120 set fine and $150 total payable. I dont show up in front of the JP on my court date and a conviction is entered. THEN when I got my conviction notice in the mail it says $160.. when I went to Edward St to pay my fine so i could do my appeal, the court clerk did an ICON Inquiry/Offence Inquiry and on the document (which I have a copy) states its $145. The court clerk didnt even know which Amount I should have paid (I paid the $160 which was on the conviction notice mailed to me). heres my argument: a) I have both a wrong set fine amount AND Total payable amount. then the court clerks office says $145, and my notice and Fine Due Date/Conviction Notice says $160. I have been lead to be confused-the court clerk was confused-- and if that is not Prejudicial! because the outcome could have prejudiced me by me paying the wrong fine amount with a deficiency, leading to a unpaid fine and then a licence suspension. That is my argument. and it started by the issuing officer making a mistake in the first place. Then the JP erred by NOT examining the Offence Notice. Now the court clerks office has made a mistake by entering a completely different amount. the ACTUAL fine for 32 over is not $120. I just hope the Judge sees it from my point of view.
Reflections wrote:
Also, I have heard that Appeal judges can be particular. I would hire representation.
Particular ..I can see that.
However--my case is cut and dry-
the officer issued me a certificate of offence for 32km/h over the posted limit.
he then fined me $120 set fine and $150 total payable. I dont show up in front of the JP on my court date and a conviction is entered.
THEN when I got my conviction notice in the mail it says $160..
when I went to Edward St to pay my fine so i could do my appeal, the court clerk did an ICON Inquiry/Offence Inquiry and on the document (which I have a copy) states its $145.
The court clerk didnt even know which Amount I should have paid (I paid the $160 which was on the conviction notice mailed to me).
heres my argument: a) I have both a wrong set fine amount AND Total payable amount. then the court clerks office says $145, and my notice and Fine Due Date/Conviction Notice says $160.
I have been lead to be confused-the court clerk was confused--
and if that is not Prejudicial! because the outcome could have prejudiced me by me paying the wrong fine amount with a deficiency, leading to a unpaid fine and then a licence suspension.
That is my argument. and it started by the issuing officer making a mistake in the first place. Then the JP erred by NOT examining the Offence Notice. Now the court clerks office has made a mistake by entering a completely different amount.
the ACTUAL fine for 32 over is not $120.
I just hope the Judge sees it from my point of view.
NOPE. i have managed with the help of a few people here managed to get this far. im just wondering how the procedure was going to play out on hearing day in a few weeks
Reflections wrote:
So are you hiring someone or not?
NOPE. i have managed with the help of a few people here managed to get this far.
im just wondering how the procedure was going to play out on hearing day in a few weeks
Apologies in advance for the lengthy reply here. It may be a little difficult to fight, but until I get some actual case law that says London v. Young is no longer applicable, I'm going to stick with the idea that the law should be on your side. Present everything - the error on the ticket, the lack of disclosure, just like you said in your original post. Your appeal is under section 135 of the Provincial Offences Act. The procedure for it is loosely outlined in section 136, which basically says it is like a "review." (FYI - Justice is wearing a red sash, he's addressed as "Your Honour" as opposed to "Your Worship." Green sash = JP, "Your Worship.") When you begin, state in some way that you are unable to afford a lawyer so you appreciate their understanding, as you have no formal legal training yourself. Your evidence is straightforward: You received a ticket, did not appear for trial, the ticket was not complete and regular on its face, the Justice of the Peace entered a conviction contrary to the procedure required by section 9.1 of the Provincial Offences Act and against precedent established by London v. Young, City of Barrie v. Porter, City of Sudbury v. Leikermoser, R. v. Monahan and R. v. Montone, and that the ticket should be quashed and a finding of not guilty entered against you. You may be asked why you did not appear for trial. Have a binder of evidence and your arguments. Study those specific cases and see what you can do with them. R. v. Montone is very similar to your case, except it was for running a red light. Basically you can use transcripts, or any records you can get, to show that the fines were incorrect. The JP cannot amend the certificate without you present. Justice K. Feldman of the Ontario Court of Appeal wrote in the London v. Young case that "the set fine forms part of the basis used by the defendant to decide whether to default." The other thing to add to your arguments that you already posted is that if the fine is incorrect, you could possibly run into trouble for not completely paying the fine, or you could be ripped off for over-paying. They're supposed to correct it, but given the numerous mistakes already made, that seems unlikely. When someone defaults and does not appear for trial, the state has the obligation to ensure that the paperwork is done correctly. If not, someone could get their licence suspended or get ripped off because of a paperwork error, which is why the fine should be correct and proper and the JP must examine it - as you said. You have now had three different fines given by three different people. How is a layperson supposed to know which one to pay? This is not acceptable, it is a Gong Show, and the only fair remedy is to quash the certificate. They'll probably argue that you did file for a trial, which is different than not responding, but R. v. Leikermoser says that failure to appear triggers the same provisions as failure to respond. Anyway... that's what I would do. Keep in mind, though, that I do not have formal legal training. While I have observed quite a few trials, defended myself a couple of times and helped a few friends with theirs, that's the extent of it. I do not pretend that I'm some sort of expert. IF we can confirm that London v. Young is no longer applicable, that changes things... but you still could argue that the whole thing should be quashed because of the administrative errors made by the JP and clerk. Good luck with it.
Apologies in advance for the lengthy reply here. It may be a little difficult to fight, but until I get some actual case law that says London v. Young is no longer applicable, I'm going to stick with the idea that the law should be on your side. Present everything - the error on the ticket, the lack of disclosure, just like you said in your original post. Your appeal is under section 135 of the Provincial Offences Act. The procedure for it is loosely outlined in section 136, which basically says it is like a "review."
(FYI - Justice is wearing a red sash, he's addressed as "Your Honour" as opposed to "Your Worship." Green sash = JP, "Your Worship.") When you begin, state in some way that you are unable to afford a lawyer so you appreciate their understanding, as you have no formal legal training yourself. Your evidence is straightforward: You received a ticket, did not appear for trial, the ticket was not complete and regular on its face, the Justice of the Peace entered a conviction contrary to the procedure required by section 9.1 of the Provincial Offences Act and against precedent established by London v. Young, City of Barrie v. Porter, City of Sudbury v. Leikermoser, R. v. Monahan and R. v. Montone, and that the ticket should be quashed and a finding of not guilty entered against you. You may be asked why you did not appear for trial.
Have a binder of evidence and your arguments. Study those specific cases and see what you can do with them. R. v. Montone is very similar to your case, except it was for running a red light. Basically you can use transcripts, or any records you can get, to show that the fines were incorrect. The JP cannot amend the certificate without you present. Justice K. Feldman of the Ontario Court of Appeal wrote in the London v. Young case that "the set fine forms part of the basis used by the defendant to decide whether to default."
The other thing to add to your arguments that you already posted is that if the fine is incorrect, you could possibly run into trouble for not completely paying the fine, or you could be ripped off for over-paying. They're supposed to correct it, but given the numerous mistakes already made, that seems unlikely. When someone defaults and does not appear for trial, the state has the obligation to ensure that the paperwork is done correctly. If not, someone could get their licence suspended or get ripped off because of a paperwork error, which is why the fine should be correct and proper and the JP must examine it - as you said. You have now had three different fines given by three different people. How is a layperson supposed to know which one to pay? This is not acceptable, it is a Gong Show, and the only fair remedy is to quash the certificate.
They'll probably argue that you did file for a trial, which is different than not responding, but R. v. Leikermoser says that failure to appear triggers the same provisions as failure to respond.
Anyway... that's what I would do. Keep in mind, though, that I do not have formal legal training. While I have observed quite a few trials, defended myself a couple of times and helped a few friends with theirs, that's the extent of it. I do not pretend that I'm some sort of expert. IF we can confirm that London v. Young is no longer applicable, that changes things... but you still could argue that the whole thing should be quashed because of the administrative errors made by the JP and clerk.
It seems like a waste to hire representation for a Part I appeal after a s.9 or s.9.1 conviction. There should be no transcript, just the certificate of offence, the conviction order/notice signed by the JP, and the original offence notice that you would bring to the appeal. Am I right in all that? s. 118(1) of the POA expressly allows you to represent yourself, even for a Part III appeal, so it should be no problem for a Part I appeal. I would think that the judge would be ticked at the JP for wasting their time with such appeals, and tell them to strictly adhere to London v. Young.
It seems like a waste to hire representation for a Part I appeal after a s.9 or s.9.1 conviction. There should be no transcript, just the certificate of offence, the conviction order/notice signed by the JP, and the original offence notice that you would bring to the appeal. Am I right in all that?
s. 118(1) of the POA expressly allows you to represent yourself, even for a Part III appeal, so it should be no problem for a Part I appeal.
I would think that the judge would be ticked at the JP for wasting their time with such appeals, and tell them to strictly adhere to London v. Young.
The end result was in this thread here: http://www.ontariohighwaytrafficact.com/topic1730.html Off Camber won. The presiding Justice at the appeal quashed the certificate. The Prosecutor even conceeded as soon as Off Camber presented an argument from City of Barrie v. Porter. Depends on how confident/competent one is. Off Camber did it on his own, but he also did his homework properly and researched everything thoroughly, and I'm sure had a pretty good idea of how to present himself in court. Not everyone is as well-versed. You'd think so. However, the position of JP was created to expedite legal proceedings. Some are very good at what they do and have the same expertise as a real Justice, most of them are fair and reasonable, and some are "interesting" for lack of a better expression. I've heard of JPs telling defendants that the ticket itself is the only disclosure they shall get; rejecting joint submissions and sending the defendant to the Crowbar Hilton, and imposing a fine that was double the statutory maximum, when the Crown and defence had asked for a licence suspension and $1000 fine; convicting a defendant because he was wearing a Rastafarian hat (that JP was subsequently dismissed from the bench); and, of course, we have these foul-ups by not quashing a ticket with a fatal error. However, in their defence, most of them only attended a meagre 2 weeks of JP school, which is nothing compared to the extensive stuff you have to do at law school - which a real Justice must have attended. The majority of JPs do a good job. It's the ones who don't have a clue that we hear about the most, unfortunately.
Off Camber won. The presiding Justice at the appeal quashed the certificate. The Prosecutor even conceeded as soon as Off Camber presented an argument from City of Barrie v. Porter.
Keroba wrote:
It seems like a waste to hire representation for a Part I appeal after a s.9 or s.9.1 conviction.
Depends on how confident/competent one is. Off Camber did it on his own, but he also did his homework properly and researched everything thoroughly, and I'm sure had a pretty good idea of how to present himself in court. Not everyone is as well-versed.
Keroba wrote:
I would think that the judge would be ticked at the JP for wasting their time with such appeals, and tell them to strictly adhere to London v. Young.
You'd think so. However, the position of JP was created to expedite legal proceedings. Some are very good at what they do and have the same expertise as a real Justice, most of them are fair and reasonable, and some are "interesting" for lack of a better expression.
I've heard of JPs telling defendants that the ticket itself is the only disclosure they shall get; rejecting joint submissions and sending the defendant to the Crowbar Hilton, and imposing a fine that was double the statutory maximum, when the Crown and defence had asked for a licence suspension and $1000 fine; convicting a defendant because he was wearing a Rastafarian hat (that JP was subsequently dismissed from the bench); and, of course, we have these foul-ups by not quashing a ticket with a fatal error. However, in their defence, most of them only attended a meagre 2 weeks of JP school, which is nothing compared to the extensive stuff you have to do at law school - which a real Justice must have attended. The majority of JPs do a good job. It's the ones who don't have a clue that we hear about the most, unfortunately.
* The above is NOT legal advice. By acting on anything I have said, you assume responsibility for any outcome and consequences. *
http://www.OntarioTicket.com OR http://www.OHTA.ca
I'm one of those poorly versed individuals. I nearly crapped myself the first trial I went in for. :oops: However now I'm going in for two more trials soon and I'm thousands times more confident. Just walk in with the right knowledge and you're golden. This is a little belated but congrats on the win Off_Camber, and hopefully you get your suspension thing figured out.
Keroba wrote:
It seems like a waste to hire representation for a Part I appeal after a s.9 or s.9.1 conviction.
Depends on how confident/competent one is. Off Camber did it on his own, but he also did his homework properly and researched everything thoroughly, and I'm sure had a pretty good idea of how to present himself in court. Not everyone is as well-versed.
I'm one of those poorly versed individuals. I nearly crapped myself the first trial I went in for.
However now I'm going in for two more trials soon and I'm thousands times more confident. Just walk in with the right knowledge and you're golden.
This is a little belated but congrats on the win Off_Camber, and hopefully you get your suspension thing figured out.
Hi so I have a bizzare situation. Today I received a summons for "being the owner of a motor vehicle bearing Vehicle Identification Number ###, failed to submit the vehicle, equipment or drawn vehicle for inspection or tests as required by an officer" for a vehicle I previously owned. Apparently a violation of HTA 82(9).
The date of offense is June 15, the summons was issued on October 26th and I…
Hi, I need some help for the ticket of lmproper left turn.
When i drove my car from east to west, intending to make a left turn and stop in front of stop line. There was a car in front of me, which has turn on yellow light. The light was turning red and then I thought I cannot leave in the intersection and turned, an incoming car was runing the light and hit me. No one got hurt but both cars had…
Have a ticket in which the radar used was a Genesis VP Directional. I had downloaded the manual for a Genesis VP but I now realize that the unit is not the same so it is the wrong manual. My trial is very soon so I do not have time to ask for disclosure of the manual.
Does anyone have access to an electronic version of the manual for Genesis VP Directional?
I was pulled over today in the city of Oakville for going 75 in a 40 zone. However, I am 100 percent certain that I was going only 50 in the 40 zone. When I was pulled over, I was driving my Dad's car which I felt was the reason I was getting stopped since two teenagers driving a 2013 S Class. He asked does I know why I am being pulled over and I…
I really need help on fighting my 9 tickets i received from one police officer. Here is some background of what happened!
I was caught speeding 66km on a 40km (school zone) on January 29, 2010. I was driving my friend's car and turns out she didnt renew the validation on the vehicle and didnt leave the up to date insurance paper on the car.
Hey question that I think here's probably the best place to get the answer:
I was charged with a careless driving offence in oct, trail in early april, so as of right now my insurance record is 100% clean... except the officer did file an accident report at the scene where I was classified at fault due to it being PI (although very minor). The person I hit did not sue etc, so the insurance company…
Very much unintentionally passed a stopped bus, with sign and flashing lights. Didn't realize I had done it until I was at the end of the bus. I'll save you my sob story, but it was truly accidental. I'm generally very cautious and have a perfect driving record. Never been stopped.
While I realize if a cop had seen me that I would have gotten a ticket, there were none in sight. Though I may very…
I was recently pulled over for running a red and I wasnt able to find my wallet in the car at the time to hand over my license. I had a passport in the vehicle that he used. The wallet was in the vehicle, it just fell through the seats. (Tough to find a black leather wallet in a black/black leather truck at night).
The officer still wrote the tickets for both he signed the one ticket (failure to…
I was passing a vehicle that was going slow for me and there was an oncoming vehicle coming at me. I speed up to get around the person I was passing and the oncoming vehicle turns out to be a cop who turns around and tickets me for going 110km in a 80km zone. How does it work with passing a vehicle? Once I passed the vehicle I went back down to my original speed of just under 100. The officer…
I picked up a brand new (old stock) Fuzzbuster a while ago at auction (wopping $5!!) and I want to mount it on the dash of my old GTO as a cool accessory when I show it at car shows. But I'm not sure if it's legal or not.
Here's my thoughts:
- It is early 70's technology (x-band) so it won't detect modern police radar. That's assuming no police force uses the old x-band frequency.
Hi guys, I'm still a little in shock of getting my first traffic ticket...
On Monday afternoon, I was returning from Toronto to Ottawa on HW416, I was driving about 15 over 100 like always. Then a car came very close to me on the left lane and made me nervous, I speed up unintentionally to pass the car and change lane, but while doing that a police car pull out of the median. He was hiding in…
May i ask this question regarding transport trucks limited to 105 km/h. Moving road blocks or safety?
IMO it isnt speed that kills. I find transport trucks infact help keep the road going. With cars that choose to not move to the right and slow down the middle lane the trucks would try to pass in their passing lane therefore the slower traffic would move right.
Received a notice from the police that a motion is being put forward to adjourn upcoming trial date. Notice indicates that an officer has sworn an affidavit that the crucial witness cannot attend date trial is set for (we know there is a social engagement at 7:30 pm for the witness, trial time is 1:30 pm). This further delay is a big problem to my daughter's case. She is moving away to…
This is what happened. I was travelling west on a four lane city street that was very light with traffic. I was making a left hand turn into a wide driveway of a business. There was traffic lights about 100 yards past the driveway and were red for the east-west traffic. I was in the left lane with my signal on and there was no oncoming traffic due to the red light. I was slowed right down…
I was driving my families older car and got pulled over, and the police officer informed me my plate was dirty. He issued me a ticket of $110 for the 13(2) act and obstruct plate as the offense. He informed me that such a plate could be used to avoid red lights as well as 407 tolls, also that buying a new plate can help to lower the ticket if I fight the charge, and that he also took a picture…
I received a red light camera ticket. In the picture, you see an ambulance in front of me with flashing lights. I had moved to alleviate the traffic behind me for the emergency vehicles coming behind it.
Is this a possible defense, if so, does anyone know any good case law to justify this position?
what happens if they charge someone for driving at 151Km/hr in montreal and they put for trial, appear after some months and sadly lost the trial ?
In montreal its $300 fine and 5demerit points ...
I heard Ontario and Qubec share the information. So once the trial is over ( and when the file moved to ontario) will his car gets towed and licence get suspended for 7days (later to 30 days ) ? and he…
I got a notice in the mail that trial is set four weeks from today, so it's time to request disclosure. I have zero chance of getting an 11b since trial is less than two months after the offense date and the officer did not reduce the charge. I really want to try and create delays on the trial, to reduce the chance of the officer showing up on multiple occasions. Is there any known loop-holes…
This weekend my father was involved in an accident with a transit bus in Burlington, ON. After the police showed up he was charged with "Fail to obey stop sign" Sec. 136(1)(a). At this particular intersection there NO stop signs but there are traffic lights. There is construction going on there so one of the light posts is smaller.
Driving conditions were terribly wet and visibility was low.…
So my boyfriend and I recently started dating. I have a vehicle that was insured. Insurance cost too much and I found it was just as easy to walk to work due to how close it was. But I didn't want to get rid of my car just yet, plus I'm still making payments on it as well. When we moved into our appartment together, I had it towed to my parking spot out back.
I was making a left hand legal turn on a green light, a driver came through the lane I was supposed to be going into ran the red and hit me head on as I was turning into my lane. When the officer came he was telling me that I was racing and driving recklessly because apparently there was reports of street racing in the area. I was not charged on the scene for this but I'm scared i am going to be…
I got a ticket for failure to surrender insurance because I did not have my new insurance stubs with me, just a bunch of expired ones. My policy number has not changed, so I asked the officer to just run the policy number so I could prove that I was in fact insured. He said they don't have that ability, handed me the ticket and reminded me that my car could have been impounded.
So I'm in a bit of a pickle and would appreciate if someone could clarify something for me.
I'm less than a month away (test on April 6th) from getting my full G license, and got a speeding ticket recently. The ticket was for 49km/h over the posted limit of 100km/h on the 403 in Oakville/Halton region, but was reduced from the initial ~60km/h over.
