Ontario Highway Traffic Act

Discuss the Ontario Highway Traffic Act.


Post Your Traffic Ticket, and Get Help!


The Ontario Traffic Ticket Forum!

       
    

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Check It Out
No unread posts New Set Fines Starting Sept 1st, 2015! Read and Learn Here.
  Print view

Speeding and Follow Too Closely
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 1:07 pm 
Offline
Jr. Member

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:09 am
Posts: 54
I'm writing for myself this time.

This morning, I was on the WB 407 on my way to school. For about 15 km, I was following an OPP SUV in the left lane. The officer was generally driving between 120 and 125, and I made sure to keep a safe distance. Before I go any further, yes, I know I was speeding, and I know that any testimony I may give if I wind up in court will confirm I was speeding. I do not expect to beat the speeding charge (as described below).

As we neared the Vaughan-Brampton border, the officer accelerated. I did NOT accelerate to keep pace. He then quickly slowed down; in the brief moment it took me to react, I was close to him before backing off. He then switched to the centre lane and I passed him at about 100. He put on his lights and got behind me. I found a safe spot to pull over.

He came up the right side and yelled into the car, "The speed limit here is 100. You were doing 135. And you were right on my bumper, so I'm also going to give you a ticket for following too closely. I need to see your licence, registration and insurance." Having paid attention to the many posts here, I said nothing. My wallet was on the back seat in my backpack. As I reached for it, I explained that I was getting my licence out of my backpack. I took it out and handed it to the officer. He walked back to his SUV as I reached for the glove compartment to give him the registration and insurance. Needless to say, I had a vision of him giving me tickets for failing to provide registration and failing to provide insurance. I knew exactly where they both were and was simply reaching for them when he left.

He came back within just a few minutes. He handed me two electronic tickets and said something to the effect of, "This is what I'm alleging. You have two weeks to decide what you want to do." Before I could even straighten the pages, he was in his SUV and gone. Thankfully, the registration and insurance weren't an issue (I had them both in my hand when he came back, just in case). He gave me two tickets, one for 135 in a 100 zone contrary to s. 128(1) of the HTA ($265 all-in) and one for Follow too Closely contrary to s. 158(1) ($110 all-in). There are no mistakes on the tickets.

If it weren't for the Follow too Closely ticket, I'd try to get the speeding reduced to 115 so there would be no points. The Crown isn't about to withdraw one charge and reduce the other, so my options are limited.

Obviously, I have a few questions.

Does the fact that the officer was driving at a high rate of speed when not pursuing anyone matter? I've heard widely differing opinions as to what a police officer can and cannot do while simply driving or patrolling.

The wording of subsection 158(1) is rather vague: The driver of a motor vehicle or street car shall not follow another vehicle or street car more closely than is reasonable and prudent having due regard for the speed of the vehicle and the traffic on and the conditions of the highway. What constitues reasonable? Obviously, when two vehicles are driving at approximately the same speed and the vehicle in front slows down, the vehicle behind will momentarily move closer until the driver of the trailing vehicle also slows down.

Is there such a thing as rear-facing vehicle-mounted radar? Or would the officer be relying on his speedometer?

For the officers in our community: how long would it typically take you to complete your typed electronic notes in a situation like this? I type extremely quickly, but I don't think even I could have possibly typed detailed notes in the time the officer was in his SUV. Do I have any chance of challenging what would likely be an assertion that he'd typed his notes at the time he pulled me over?

The tickets show that the offences were allegedly committed in the City of Vaughan and that the Newmarket court has jurisdiction. I'm usually extremely careful to note fine details, but I was off my game this morning...probably because sitting on the shoulder was not my idea of fun while I was trying to get to school. If we'd actually crossed into Brampton (Peel Region), would that matter?

I'll probably think of more, but that's my Monday morning dilemma.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:24 pm 
Offline
High Authority

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1365
Yes there is such a thing as rear facing antenna for moving radar, so it could be radar or speedometer, but you wont know until you request disclosure.

Officers are allowed to speed all they want while on duty. Apparently it is not safe for anybody else to speed (which is why they say they give so many speeding tickets), but it is perfectly safe for them to do so because the law says so.

Plead not guilty to both, and request a trial with the officer present. Once you get your notice of trial, you can request disclosure. You need to know what officer wrote in his notes before you can proceed with defense.

I would also get out a note pad, and put todays date and time at the top and write out your own version of what happened. You can than use your notes to refresh your memory at trial as well.

_________________
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:32 pm 
Offline
Jr. Member

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:09 am
Posts: 54
Excellent idea about the notepad! Tomorrow, I'll try to remember where he pulled me over. I'll use my GPS to help if necessary.

That stinks that officers can speed "just because." I once reported one for turning on his lights when he didn't want to wait at a red light (he turned them off as soon as he'd gone through), and I once saw one plead guilty to improper operation of an emergency vehicle (or something to that effect) for the same reason. Laws should be laws. In fact, police officers should be held to a higher standard.

I imagine it will be several months before I receive my trial date. I can't wait to see the disclosure.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:38 pm 
Offline
Newbie

Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:00 pm
Posts: 15
Zatota wrote:
I'm writing for myself this time.

He came back within just a few minutes. He handed me two electronic tickets and said something to the effect of, "This is what I'm alleging. You have two weeks to decide what you want to do." Before I could even straighten the pages, he was in his SUV and gone. Thankfully, the registration and insurance weren't an issue (I had them both in my hand when he came back, just in case). He gave me two tickets, one for 135 in a 100 zone contrary to s. 128(1) of the HTA ($265 all-in) and one for Follow too Closely contrary to s. 158(1) ($110 all-in). There are no mistakes on the tickets.


The speeding at 35 km/h over the posted speed limit is a 4 demerit point offence and the Follow Too Closely is a 4 demerit point offence. Yes, cruisers will generally have both front and rear facing radar antennas. The details of how the officer measured your speed will be a component of their notes released through the regular disclosure process. Most Ontario Prosecutors, even with a licenced paralegal with whom they have an established history, will generally not go from a +35 speeding offence to a lesser +15 offence.

Like all matters before the court, the defence process boils down to first evaluating the evidence of the Prosecution for any legal basis for the charge(s) to be withdrawn. Barring an argument to have the charge(s) withdrawn, a decision must be made based on the merits of that evidence on whether to proceed to trial or to consider a negotiated settlement to reduce the nature and number of the charges.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:34 pm 
Offline
Jr. Member

Joined: Tue Aug 16, 2016 10:09 am
Posts: 54
I certainly don't need eight points!!! I'm pissed that he nailed me on the Follow too Closely. It was really only momentary that I was within two seconds of him and it was right after he braked. Frankly, that almost reeks of entrapment (even though I know that's not a defence in Ontario).

On the upside, I'm 99.6% sure we were in Brampton when he pulled me over. I'll see what his disclosure says next Spring when I actually get the Notice of Trial. I assume I can bring a motion or whatever to show that Newmarket would have no jurisdiction.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 1:00 am 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Sun Jun 22, 2008 3:21 am
Posts: 330
Unfortunately my reading of the Provincial Offences Act suggests that they can ticket you into the court of an adjoining jurisdiction so I don't think it will matter which side of the Brampton/Newmarket boarder your were on. The issue is addressed in section 29(2). https://www.ontario.ca/laws/statute/90p33#BK45

Territorial jurisdiction
29. (1) Subject to subsection (2), a proceeding in respect of an offence shall be heard and determined by the Ontario Court of Justice sitting in the county or district in which the offence occurred or in the area specified in the transfer agreement made under Part X. 2009, c. 33, Sched. 4, s. 1 (35).

Idem
(2) A proceeding in respect of an offence may be heard and determined in a county or district that adjoins that in which the offence occurred if,

(a) the court holds sittings in a place reasonably proximate to the place where the offence occurred; and

(b) the place of sitting referred to in clause (a) is named in the summons or offence notice. R.S.O. 1990, c. P.33, s. 29 (2).


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:18 am 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:21 am
Posts: 388
if on duty "and" on a call, if off duty and pursuing a criminal,
presumably not if there late to pick up there laundry or get the office coffee run ;)

and also because it safe for them to do it, because, they are highly trained drivers and able to cope/deal with high speed persuits

............presumably

"The family of a five-year-old boy killed in a car crash by a speeding police officer is devastated the officer will not be charged.
The boy was killed on February 13 when an SQ officer in an unmarked car travelling more than double the speed limit slammed into Mike Belance’s car at the intersection of Gaetan Boucher Blvd. and Davis Blvd. in Longueuil.
Belance was driving his children to school and making a left-hand turn when he was rammed by an unmarked police car speeding at 122 km/h. "
source ctv


jsherk wrote:
Officers are allowed to speed all they want while on duty. Apparently it is not safe for anybody else to speed (which is why they say they give so many speeding tickets), but it is perfectly safe for them to do so because the law says so.


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 9:48 am 
Offline
High Authority

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1365
So if I take a course and become a highly trained driver and learn how to cope/deal with high speed driving, then I should not get any more speeding tickets... that is great news (sarcasm emoji)

_________________
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:46 am 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
Posts: 617
Officers are definitely not allowed to speed all they want while on duty. But there are times when they may exceed the speed limit both with and without emergency lights activated.

_________________
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 11:53 am 
Offline
High Authority

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1365
HTA 128(13) says:
Fire department vehicles and police vehicles
128(13) The speed limits prescribed under this section or any regulation or by-law passed under this section do not apply to,
(b) a police department vehicle being used in the lawful performance of a police officer’s duties;


Seems to me that it says an officer, while on duty, is exempt from section 128, which means they can speed all they want with or without their lights and siren activated.

_________________
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:42 pm 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:21 am
Posts: 388
you got it ;)

jsherk wrote:
So if I take a course and become a highly trained driver and learn how to cope/deal with high speed driving, then I should not get any more speeding tickets... that is great news (sarcasm emoji)


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:44 pm 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Sun Apr 27, 2014 10:21 am
Posts: 388
sitting on the fence <mode>

If I where a baker, I'd get to take a few odd loaves home at the end of the shift
If I worked in a bar, maybe I'd get to take a bottle or some left over bar snacks

If I was in a job which allowed me to speed Legally ... Think I'd do that ;) < tongue in cheek mode>


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:56 pm 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
Posts: 617
jsherk wrote:
HTA 128(13) says:
Fire department vehicles and police vehicles
128(13) The speed limits prescribed under this section or any regulation or by-law passed under this section do not apply to,
(b) a police department vehicle being used in the lawful performance of a police officer’s duties;


Seems to me that it says an officer, while on duty, is exempt from section 128, which means they can speed all they want with or without their lights and siren activated.


lawful performance is the key. That could be responding to a call, pacing another vehicle, or a myriad of other circumstances. Late home for lunch would not apply. If a copper got into a crunch and was speeding then he'd better be able to explain what the reason was.

_________________
Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 6:08 pm 
Offline
Sr. Member

Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:20 am
Posts: 253
Even if you were convicted of both charges as laid, you will not get 8 points...Points do not add up for multiple charges arising from one incident...you only get points for the highest point value ticket...so in this case you would only get 4 points, again, if convicted of both as charged...you likely won't be...


Top
 Profile  
 
Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2016 7:13 pm 
Offline
High Authority

Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2012 1:18 pm
Posts: 1365
@screech - That is news to me. I thought that you received the points for ALL the convictions.

_________________
+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 27 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 5 hours [ DST ]


Related topics
 Topics   Author   Replies   Views   Last post 
There are no new unread posts for this topic. Follow Too Closely Traffic Ticket

Midnite89

2

501

Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:23 pm

iFly55 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Follow too close AND the guy in front

synergy

1

594

Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:00 pm

racer View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Was rear ended, and received a 'following too closely' tickt

heymr01

0

644

Fri Aug 17, 2012 1:30 pm

heymr01 View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. speeding 15 and under

kebin

12

806

Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:29 am

Bookm View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Speeding

[ Go to pageGo to page: 1, 2 ]

Reflections

19

1197

Mon Oct 27, 2008 8:52 pm

hwybear View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. Speeding 1km over

cluelessInTO

7

512

Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:25 pm

admin View the latest post

There are no new unread posts for this topic. first speeding ticket

setdin2

5

1083

Fri Oct 07, 2011 1:16 am

Squishy View the latest post

 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 0 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: