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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 7:55 pm 
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Thanks for that, screeech. That's a HUGE relief!

argyll, I know you're a former officer. Is driving along the 407, ostensibly looking for potential speeders, considered "lawful performance of a police officer's duty"? I get that responding to a call, etc., is, regardless of whether the lights are on, but, to me, just out and fishing would be completely different. If he's simply patrolling, I would think he'd have to stick to 100.


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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2016 1:30 pm 
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jsherk wrote:
@screech - That is news to me. I thought that you received the points for ALL the convictions.


Screech is correct. If multiple charges are issued from the same incident, the defendant will only receive the demerit points for the offence with the highest number of demerit points. The defendant will still get a record of conviction for each offence that goes to a conviction on their driving record. That driving record will then be visible for third parties such as employers/insurance. So it is important to protect the driving record beyond simply the demerit points.

On a side note, while your questions about the Officer and his/her rate of speed are an interesting discussion. I wouldn't get too focused on them as they have no impact on your case.


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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 10:30 am 
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OTD Legal wrote:
On a side note, while your questions about the Officer and his/her rate of speed are an interesting discussion. I wouldn't get too focused on them as they have no impact on your case.


So you're saying an officer can speed without fear of repercussion? I've read some blogs and official or semi-official police postings. Unfortunately, none of them is from Ontario. Police officers in other Canadian jurisdictions have said that they don't need to have their lights on when they're responding to a call or emergency (and there are valid reasons they may not want to have them on), but most have said they're not supposed to be speeding when they're simply on patrol. I have not been able to find anything that defines "legally performing his/her duties." He does not need to drive 120 to catch speeders. He certainly doesn't need to drive 135 when on patrol unless his intent is to entice someone to follow him. Maybe he wasn't wearing his seat belt. As I understand the HTA, officers are only exempt below 40 km/h.

It will be interesting to see how he claims to have positively identified me. I do that same drive every day. At this time of year, most drivers still have their headlights on (they were required until 8:02 that morning, 8:05 this morning). With headlights on and standard windshield tinting, it is extremely difficult to make out drivers and to read a backwards licence plate without staring at it (and not looking ahead for several seconds). Yes, I'm putting the cart before the horse, but I obviously need to start thinking about my defence.


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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:22 am 
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Zatota wrote:
OTD Legal wrote:
On a side note, while your questions about the Officer and his/her rate of speed are an interesting discussion. I wouldn't get too focused on them as they have no impact on your case.


So you're saying an officer can speed without fear of repercussion? .


How do you get that from what OTD Legal said ???

He identified you from your driver's licence. He believes he saw a motor vehicle commit an offence, pulled that vehicle over and identified the driver with a valid Ontario DL.

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:36 am 
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Zatota wrote:
OTD Legal wrote:
On a side note, while your questions about the Officer and his/her rate of speed are an interesting discussion. I wouldn't get too focused on them as they have no impact on your case.

So you're saying an officer can speed without fear of repercussion?

No, I think what he is saying is that whether or not the officer was speeding, has no bearing on YOUR ticket.

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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:58 pm 
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argyll wrote:
How do you get that from what OTD Legal said ???

He identified you from your driver's licence. He believes he saw a motor vehicle commit an offence, pulled that vehicle over and identified the driver with a valid Ontario DL.
I get that from the comment that his speeding will have no bearing on my ticket. If his speeding is legal, it won't have any bearing. But if it's illegal (as it should be if he's not responding to a call, pursuing a suspect, etc.), it would have a bearing. How can I be convicted of an offence when the officer obtained his evidence while committing an offence?

I get that he'd identify me from my DL. But he'll probably say I was following him over a certain distance, etc. How can he be sure I was the same driver following him? Obviously, that would be an angle for cross-examination, but I think I could establish doubt as to whether the same driver was following him the whole time.


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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 12:59 pm 
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jsherk wrote:
Zatota wrote:
OTD Legal wrote:
On a side note, while your questions about the Officer and his/her rate of speed are an interesting discussion. I wouldn't get too focused on them as they have no impact on your case.

So you're saying an officer can speed without fear of repercussion?

No, I think what he is saying is that whether or not the officer was speeding, has no bearing on YOUR ticket.
That's the thing of which I'm unsure. If his speeding is illegal, it should have a bearing on my ticket. Evidence the officer obtained while committing an offence should be inadmissible.


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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 1:36 pm 
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You are really reaching. You are asking your judge to overhaul the entire system.

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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 2:23 pm 
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argyll wrote:
You are really reaching. You are asking your judge to overhaul the entire system.
That's one of the reasons I reached out to you in the first place. If I take it correctly, you're essentially saying that courts will allow police officers to speed routinely, even when there's no need to do so. Police tell drivers that speeding is dangerous, yet they're allowed to do just that? I probably won't be the person to change the system, but it's hard to accept this reality.


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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:52 pm 
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I think you have nothing to lose by challenging it based on the officer speeding illegally, so it is worth a try.

However, my opinion is that YES the courts allow police officers to speed routinely even when there is no need to do so. I don't agree with it, but it seems to be the way it is.

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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 3:59 pm 
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So you're using the argument that he was doing it so I should be able to as well. You are very much falling into the trap of another post on another thread which said examine why you are going to court. It sounds to me like you are expecting to be found guilty but just want your voice to be heard. Sadly it won't be - you will be shut down by the judge in seconds when you go off on a tangent. They only care about if you speeding. If you want to make a complaint about the if fibers driving then so be it but court is not the place.

You are going to be very disappointed. I've seen it several times and, honestly, it's not pretty because the person just goes home feeling more ignored and aggrieved.

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: Speeding and Follow Too Closely
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2016 11:21 pm 
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I think argyll hit the nail on the head. Remember why you are going to court this argument has no bearing on your charge. Police are exempt from various parts of the HTA s128 is one of them . Focus on your cross examination questions not the fact the officer was speeding, was he in the performance of his duties. I would almost bet he will say yes as he was out doing speed enforcement . Here's an example:

Officer is stationary the median sees a vehicle traveling 165 km/h opposite direction starts from 0 he will most likely get to 200 km/h + to catch up to this vehicle . Was he speeding ...yes...execution of duty...yes. Could the officer have been catching up to a vehicle when the radar was locked and he obtained the reading while already going 135 km/h yes and that's completely likely. Not entirely defending it but that's just the way it is .


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