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STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 20, 2016 11:09 pm 
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Hi guys!
First of all, I'm from Brampton, and this is what happened: my friends and I were heading to Thunderbay for a weekend vacation 3 weeks ago, then 4 hours away from Thunderbay, In white river Ontario, It was a foggy morning - crazy fog, and I was driving 115kmh in a 90kmh zone - it was a downhill so I just removed my foot on the gas and let the car just roll and all of a sudden I didn't notice that the maximum speed dropped to 60kmh and when I realized it, I immediately slowed down to somewhere 80kmh but it was already too late when I saw an OPP behind and pulled me over.

The car I was driving was a '13 veloster turbo.

Here's the scenario:
the OPP was driving on the opposite traffic then when we passed him he immediately made a u-turn and pulled us over and he clocked me at 115kmh and he also said that the cars in front of us was doing 83kmh. I tried to tell him I was only doing 80kmh, but he clocked me earlier, I also tried to apologize to the cop and asked him for another chance. Trust me, I was very polite to the cop and even greeted him but before I even finished my greeting he already cut me off and went "please shut off the vehicle and hand me the keys."

He charged me with excessive speeding - stunt driving of 55km over, and worst part is the car that I was driving was my friend's who was just sleeping at the back seat (we rotate shifts to drive) - so his car got impounded for 7 days and my drivers license suspended for 7 days. Then we had to hitch hike to Thunderbay as it's gonna cost us almost $1200 to go back to gta and go back north in 7 days to get the car back. So we just went to Thunderbay to just do what we planned as all of us were on work leave for vacation for a week, so vacation messed up by me. Then came a week, I got my drivers license reinstated with no fee (weird, but thankfully), then I paid for the impound which was like $500.

My first appearance is on October 20, 2016. So my question is, would it be necessary to get a paralegal for this or can I just represent myself and try to talk to the prosecutor? Court is in Wawa, ontario, which is 10hrs away, but I can manage to get there by bus. I'm in a financial hardship, I got fired from my workplace as I'm a lot guy for a dealership and a clean record is a must and I'm starting college this January. I tried to sit down and talked with some paralegals around the gta and they charge $1500, the most expensive was $3500, I also tried calling some paralegals up north close to the court and they charge at least $1700. But they said there are no garuantees up there!
I'm really afraid of this charges as I know I'm looking at a $2k-10k fine, another drivers license suspension, and a possibility of imprisonment up to 6 months.

My driving record:
Have a 3 demerit points (red light) back in september of 2014 when I was in highschool, new to driving and did a U-turn on a 3 way intersection on a red light (I swear I didn't know that making a u-turn on a red light is prohibited). And a speeding ticket of 15km over on a 60km zone back in late 2015.


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:38 am 
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Did you receive a SUMMONS with the October 20 court date on it?

Or did you get a NOTICE OF OFFENCE and then you pled Not Guilty and requested a trial, and October 20 is the Trial date they sent you on a Notice of Trial?

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 7:48 am 
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The OP would have received a Part 3 Summons if charged with an offence under 172 at the road side. Your a little bit late getting started here, the first thing I would do is get a disclosure request in but do it ASAP .

Secondly if you don't receive your disclosure before the appearance date show up at the appearance and go talk to the crown before hand . See if he will offer a reduced charge to Speeding 109 km/h in a 60 km/h zone under s. 128 HTA ( you could resolve it that day if your willing to accept a reduced charge to speeding ). If the crown isn't willing to bargain ( or you don't want to accept a reduced charge) advise you'll be setting a date for trial and you haven't received disclosure yet. Once your name is called you'll stand and advise your pleading not guilty a trial date will be set. OR hire a lawyer/paralegal and they will do all that for you.


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Wed Sep 21, 2016 8:44 am 
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Usually you do not request disclosure before a SUMMONS date. At a summons date there are several things that can happen:

(1) You can just plead guilty (not recommended).
(2) If offered a plea deal, you can plead guilty to plea deal. Not usually recommended, but in this case stunt driving is a SERIOUS offence for insurance purposes and your rates will skyrocket if you are found guilty. If offered speeding at 49 over, this is only a MINOR offence for insurance purposes and would probably be worth accepting. And given the distance you need to travel this may also be a good option because you won't have to come back again. A speeding ticket on your record is far better than a stunt ticket!
(3) If not offered a plea deal, you can say you want to review disclosure before you decide whether to plead guilty or not guilty. They will set another summons date at which time you will have to come back again. This date is again not the trial date yet, so not a recommended option.
(4) If not offered a plea deal, you can say you plan to plead not guilty and want review disclosure. They will set an actual trial date for you to come back to. This would be better than option 3.

So hopefully suggestion 2 works out for you. Otherwise go with 4.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Fri Sep 23, 2016 3:26 pm 
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Thanks for all the replies, guys! Really do appreciate it, and hopefully everything would turn out good when I actually go there. To be honest, I'd rather hire a paralegal, but given the financial situation I am in right now, I can't afford it. Also I've heard stories about people who actually represented themselves and turned out good, and a lawyer told me there is nothing a paralegal can do that I can't do myself given the circumstance, he said, it would come out of the same result on the first day. If not, I can also ask them to reschedule another summon on that first appearance.

I'll be posting the outcome of my situation after my first summon.


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Tue Sep 27, 2016 9:07 am 
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Not sure why you were even driving 115 if the fog as as bad as you say, but......was there no "60 ahead" sign?


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:40 pm 
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Wow Thunderbay ? i always slower than the km limit whenever out of GTA, one thing i hate about driving is TAILGATE and PUSHING while making left turn


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Tue Oct 04, 2016 10:14 pm 
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There was a sign, but it was really too foggy to see it from a distance. And I know, my mistake, I was running 20 over the maximum speed limit of 90kmh when i saw the sudden change in speed limit from 90 to 60. Guys, I'm really not stupid enough to run 50 over the speed limit intentionally, but stupid enough not to realize there was a change in speed.


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:19 pm 
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In Ontario you will see "shall" which means you must. There is no confusion about this word as the courts have decided "shall" means must and "may" means optional. I do not know the case law off the top of my head, but I have read it several times where this was decided.

FAA rules do not apply in Canada, only in the USA. Make sure you are reading the correct rules/laws.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Mon Oct 10, 2016 1:55 am 
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Joined: Fri Jun 25, 2010 3:30 am
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silkhead wrote:

how does the written will of men and woman known as the legislature (statute) apply to me because I'm standing in a geographical location? (the real answer is guns)
.


The laws are made by people elected by the people. That gives them their authority. It's called democracy as opposed to the anarchy that Freeman on the Land subscribe to. If enough people didn't want any traffic laws then by all means elect politicians with a mandate to repeal them.

The Freeman argument is shut down regularly by courts all over the country. Font for a second believe that you will intimidate the bench with your conflict of interest question.

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 1:44 pm 
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UPDATE:

Here is what happened earlier:
My summon time was at 10AM, I arrived at 9 AM and the prosecutor wasn't there yet, so I sat on one of the chairs inside the courtroom. At 9:30, the prosecutor came in, and started organizing some folders and started calling names of the people and coming up to them to discuss their options. He came up to me, and went "I know you are not from around here and I know your are expecting to get this reduce to 49km/h but this is not the GTA where it is common to have this reduce to that section. See toronto area has a huge number of cases in a day, over here we only get 10-15 cases a day for the whole district. I used to be a duty counsel for the york region. bla bla bla" Then he offered me the same thing of 55 over, so that's 115kmh on a 60km zone - but this time, I'll be charge under the traffic act section 128. Penalties are 6 demerit points, 30 day license suspension, and a fine of $536 plus surcharge of 125, and etc etc comes up to $700 (just an estimate). I tried to renegotiate with him to lower the demerit to 4 and speed to 49, but he said he can't and won't go any lower than this section 128 bla bla. I tried to consult a paralegal over the phone (a paralegal that I once consulted before for some free advice) and he said it's in my favour if I'd accept it this time, as I told him I reviewed the disclosure and everything are well-detailed and truth. Then the judge (not sure if judge you call it), came in and as usual everyone stood. He started calling up names, and before he even called me, there's this dude who was charge of the same thing as me - stunt driving excessive speed of 134kmh on a 80km zone, and guess what? The dude has a paralegal to represent him, and I heard that's their second time being there and he was only offered the same thing as me - same charge under section 128 and he ended up pleading guilty to it.

So to cut the story short, I pleaded guilty to it as well as I wanted to get out of this stressful situation and I can't afford a paralegal nor any more trips to come back. Why did I plead guilty under section 128? I don't see myself getting my own car and geting it insured under my name for the next 5 years is all and I'm broke to further contest this charges and hire a paralegal. Anyways, I'm on my way back to gta now.


Total expense:
Car impounded: $420
Reinstatement fee: NONE
Greyhound bus fare: $280 (round trip)
Charges: $700 (estimate)
Total: $1,400

Now, if I hired a paralegal, I'd be looking at $1,500 just for legal fee alone - and I got the same outcome as the other dude who got a paralegal. This has been a very expensive bad experience for me, so for any drivers out there, drive within the limits!

What do you think of my charges? Am I stupid for pleading guilty?

Anyways, thanks to the people who gave an advice!


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:18 pm 
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I think you made the best of a bad situation. It would have been nice if the prosecutor had offered +49 but he's under no obligation to do so. At the end of the day it's a speeding charge albeit a high one but it's not stunting.

Good on you for coming back on to update us. Few do so thanks.

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2016 3:48 pm 
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So the biggest negative you have is that the speeding 55 over would cause you to have super high insurance rates for the next three years. If you are not going to have your own insurance, then I guess it does not matter. The insurance would be the biggest concern that I would have with pleading guilty, so in this case you probably did the right thing though.

Yes you could have hired a paralegal but most likely they would not have gotten you a plea deal or won anyways either.

Sometimes you have to cut your loses.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: STUNT DRIVING CHARGE - NEED ADVICE
PostPosted: Sun Oct 23, 2016 5:16 pm 
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Good for you - you did the right thing!


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