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T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a ticket
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2016 10:18 pm 
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Hey guys, I am totally new to this and I am here to look for advice.

I was T-boned to my right front doorat a four way stop intersection in the Niagara on the Lake area, I was 3/4 acrossed the intersection then a car just bumped me. We waited for almost 3 hours for the police to show up, then as I was buzy calling my insurance company I was given an at-fault ticket saying I disobey the stop sign. "Start from stopped position not in safety." HTA 142 (2). I argued immediately that it was clearly the other car's fault as I did not see any car to my right when I decided to go and as I almost passed the intersection I got hit. The officer said since there was no evidence, no camera, no witness, he has to assume we arrived at the same time and the other car has the "right of way" and the only explaination was that I did not stop at the stop sign.

I am sending my request of disclosure tomorrow to see what the officer has against me but I highly doubt he has anything since he was 3 hours late to the scene and all he has was the statement from me and the other car.

The court date is november this year.

What do I need to prepare for this case and what are my chances of winning?
My girlfriend was seating at the passenger's sit at the time of the collision, can she be my witness?

Thank you guys!


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 6:33 am 
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gate, horse and bolted.... Dashcam never fails,
other than that, somone will be along to give some advise,
sorry to hear your accident;
getting a ticket after that (if that is what happened) is adding insult to injury !


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 7:17 am 
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Why would the officer say there was no witness when you say your girlfriend was in the car with you? I assume he did not talk to her then.

But anyways, yes your girlfriend can testify. But you only want her to testify if what she saw was that (1) you came to complete stop, and (2) you arrived at stop sign before other car, and (3) you proceeded as you had the right of way and it was safe to do so. Actually same applies to you for testifying as well.

I would also have her write a statement that you can give to your insurance company so they do not find you at fault. Remember that the insurance company has it's own rules for determining who is at fault, regardless of who got charged by police.

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+++ This is not legal advice, only my opinion +++


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:26 am 
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jsherk wrote:
Why would the officer say there was no witness when you say your girlfriend was in the car with you? I assume he did not talk to her then.

But anyways, yes your girlfriend can testify. But you only want her to testify if what she saw was that (1) you came to complete stop, and (2) you arrived at stop sign before other car, and (3) you proceeded as you had the right of way and it was safe to do so. Actually same applies to you for testifying as well.

I would also have her write a statement that you can give to your insurance company so they do not find you at fault. Remember that the insurance company has it's own rules for determining who is at fault, regardless of who got charged by police.


When the officer talked to me, he knows that my girlfriend was in the car with me and he was asking if both of us were ok. I guess he did not talk to her was because we were both Chinese international students so maybe he assumed she does not speak good English, while in fact she does. So when he went on about there were no evidence and witness we just assumed she doesn't qualify given her relation to me.

I also have a screen shot of the intersection from google map saying its an unusual intersection and I would be going so fast so that I can be hit to my right. But is that relevent to my ticket? For it's only about me disobeying the stop sign and not about the collision. I will post the picture below.


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:06 am 
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The stopping is not in question as per the ticket wording. It's all about who arrived at the intersection first. It would appear that you were due to the fact the front of their car hit the side of yours.

I can see a withdrawal of the charge because it will boil down to a he-said he-said between you and the other driver and no judge will convict on that.

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Former Ontario Police Officer. Advice will become less relevant as the time goes by !


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 10:21 am 
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They did not take a statement from your girlfriend as she was not an independent witness...had nothing to do with race...if there was a person standing on the sidewalk, who had no connection to either vehicle involved, a statement would have been taken from that person...


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:41 am 
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In my opinion a person sitting in the car is just as much as valid witness as somebody standing on the sidewalk.

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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:44 am 
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screeech wrote:
They did not take a statement from your girlfriend as she was not an independent witness...had nothing to do with race...


^^^ that exactly, wife had a car accident a while ago; insurance wouldn't take her passengers side as evidence as it needed to be totally independant


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 11:48 am 
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I agree but a witness in your car is a friend/family member, do you think that they are going to be impartial?
I wouldn't side with another car driver if I was in the car with my wife? Or admit it was our fault.

Maybe the case of a taxi driver or something possibly?

But I'm certainly hearing you

jsherk wrote:
In my opinion a person sitting in the car is just as much as valid witness as somebody standing on the sidewalk.


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:16 pm 
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Yes bobajob, you are correct...the key word is "independent" witness...No one said you could not bring your witness along to testify, infact you should...a Justice of the Peace will give more weight to the testimony of an independent person than to one who is not...


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 12:41 am 
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If cops came to the scene you can't win this ticket, you should have dealt with other driver and not involve the insurance company nor Cops, Insurance will do an internal investigate if there wasn't cop involved otherwise they will Judge by the police reports, there are drivers DO FRAUD INSURANCE in Ontario, you better becareful.

About Cops, no they don't look down on Race or nationality, only bystander or none relationship to you can be your witness, DASHCAM is the only one can help you, did you have it when the accident happens ?


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 1:57 pm 
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I'm curious, why won't he win this trial because the cops were there?


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 2:18 pm 
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If the police did not witness the accident themselves, then in order to be convicted at trial for the charge the prosecutor will need (1) the police officer that charged you, AND (2) a witness that SAW what happened (usually the other driver). If the police officer shows up to trial but no witness, then they must drop the charge.

And given the fact that you have a witness that was in your car, that will probably testify to your story, then the prosecutors chances of winning are slim to none, even if the other driver shows up.

Now if they have more than one witness on the other side that saw the accident and will testify to the other drivers story then you will probably lose.

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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:47 pm 
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thank you for all your reply, I sent out the disclosure request yesterday and just waiting for that to come.

I am uploading a diagram that I drew up about what happened. It's a four way stop sign intersection with a slope, judging by where I am hit, it's clear that there is no way we arrived at the same time or the other car arrived before me. Will this be a strong defence for me?

Also about the witness, I am definitely bringing my girlfriend to the court with me, do I need to let them know ahead of time that I am bringing a witness?
As for the other driver, will she also receive a notice that I am bringing this case up to the court and she might be a witness? because from my understanding I am only fighting this ticket against the police officer.

The cop showed up three hours late to the scene, I am guessing the other car was a total loss so our insurance company was contacted. They told me afterwards that they see it as a 50-50 accident. I am already suffering a increase of my insurance.

When the officer showed up, he asked me if I called a tow truck because I said my car is not operable, and I said no, he then told me to give them a call. I immediately called my insurance company for that and the whole process took almost half an hour. During this time the other driver was constantly talking to the officer and it was freezing outside so I had to go back to my car to make the phone call. When I finally finished the phone call, the officer asked me what happened, I summed everything within 5 sentences, and he said "that's exactly what she said." Tha's the end of the whole conversation.
I am not focusing on whether the officer treated me differently because of my race, but the fact the other driver talked to him for half an hour and I only had a very short conversation with the officer might lead to a unfair result against me. I did not had a chance to listen to what she said so I can disagree with any false statements and that might lead to my ticket.

Anyways, it's already very helpful from all your replies and I will keep you guys posted!


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Re: T-boned at all way stop intersection, I was given a tick
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2016 9:54 pm 
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Also, if after I receive the disclosure and nothing really strong or solid is mentioned there, can I make a phone call to the prosecutor to see if they can drop the case? Or the police officer? The court is in Niagara falls and I live in Guelph. I am having my final semester in college and I am really super busy around that time especially the court date is close to my final. I feel like spending my whole day going there and back is really not the best I can think of. This case has already taken a lot of my time, and I totally think it was going to be the other driver's fault when everything happened. I was really suprised when I got the ticket.


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