Hi, I need some help for the ticket of lmproper left turn. When i drove my car from east to west, intending to make a left turn and stop in front of stop line. There was a car in front of me, which has turn on yellow light. The light was turning red and then I thought I cannot leave in the intersection and turned, an incoming car was runing the light and hit me. No one got hurt but both cars had damages. There was a wittness (another driver) but he only left contact number to me instead of staying there. A police showed up and made us to make the statements, which I did. But as English is my second language and I am not good to describe the scene. My brain was messed up from shocking of the accident and the police urged me to finish it hurry because he had to go, I made a bad statement and said the light was yellow when I was turing. After home I recalled it was just turned red and then contacted the wit who said he saw it was turning red. He was in same direction of that driver and about same time to get the intersection. The policeman didn't give me the ticket until a week after. I know it was my fault because I didn't see that car was runing the light. But is there a way to defend myself? Should I go to court to take a chance? The policeman said there was no points for this ticket but I don't think so. Thanks in advance for help
Hi, I need some help for the ticket of lmproper left turn.
When i drove my car from east to west, intending to make a left turn and stop in front of stop line. There was a car in front of me, which has turn on yellow light. The light was turning red and then I thought I cannot leave in the intersection and turned, an incoming car was runing the light and hit me. No one got hurt but both cars had damages. There was a wittness (another driver) but he only left contact number to me instead of staying there. A police showed up and made us to make the statements, which I did. But as English is my second language and I am not good to describe the scene. My brain was messed up from shocking of the accident and the police urged me to finish it hurry because he had to go, I made a bad statement and said the light was yellow when I was turing. After home I recalled it was just turned red and then contacted the wit who said he saw it was turning red. He was in same direction of that driver and about same time to get the intersection. The policeman didn't give me the ticket until a week after.
I know it was my fault because I didn't see that car was runing the light. But is there a way to defend myself? Should I go to court to take a chance? The policeman said there was no points for this ticket but I don't think so.
If English is your second language (no matter how well you speak it!), you can get representation in your language, and the courts will have to provide you with a translator. Go to a police station, explain your situation, say that you have been confused and shocked by the impact, thus your testimony cannot be taken as reliable because of your shock and temporary inability to answer in English, and ask for a translator to your language. On a side note, the cop should not have hurried you at all, especially after a collision. They take 20-30 minutes to write a speeding ticket, and then hurry you up after a collision. Something's not right.
If English is your second language (no matter how well you speak it!), you can get representation in your language, and the courts will have to provide you with a translator. Go to a police station, explain your situation, say that you have been confused and shocked by the impact, thus your testimony cannot be taken as reliable because of your shock and temporary inability to answer in English, and ask for a translator to your language.
On a side note, the cop should not have hurried you at all, especially after a collision. They take 20-30 minutes to write a speeding ticket, and then hurry you up after a collision. Something's not right.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
My average stop is 10min long...or less if the "printer" from the computer is working! :shock: Back to luckyrat...what was the charge that you received?
racer wrote:
they take 20-30 minutes to write a speeding ticket, and then hurry you up after a collision.
My average stop is 10min long...or less if the "printer" from the computer is working!
Back to luckyrat...what was the charge that you received?
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
He asked me to write the statement first, and then talked with another driver. That driver decided to finish the statement at home and left. And then asked me to finish it quickly. He didn't issue the ticket right away. A week later he droped the ticket at my home but told me that there was no points charged on this ticket. He said it was just like parking ticket. It has been 20 days already since the accident, will it still fine to go to the police station and tell then the information I provided on the statement is not reliable because I was in shock? Will they believe me? On the ticket it says IMPROPER LEFT TURN, Act S141(6). The officer said no matter another driver was running yellow or red, I would be still charged for making an improper left turn.
He asked me to write the statement first, and then talked with another driver. That driver decided to finish the statement at home and left. And then asked me to finish it quickly. He didn't issue the ticket right away. A week later he droped the ticket at my home but told me that there was no points charged on this ticket. He said it was just like parking ticket.
It has been 20 days already since the accident, will it still fine to go to the police station and tell then the information I provided on the statement is not reliable because I was in shock? Will they believe me?
On the ticket it says IMPROPER LEFT TURN, Act S141(6). The officer said no matter another driver was running yellow or red, I would be still charged for making an improper left turn.
I usually trust cops, but not this one! 141(6) carries 2 points (check with our "Demerit Points" table, or the one from MTO), so he lied right there, and I wouldn't believe what he said about the other driver either. You must be extra careful when dealing with tickets you received in collision, because if the other driver gets off without a ticket, you are automatically guilty of a collision! Don't even bother talking to the cop, try his supervisor instead, request the disclosure, and talk to a paralegal. If the other driver ran the red, then he is 100% responsible for the crash, not you with "improper left turn". Fight this ticket, you've only been served it recently, what you should have done is taken the collision report home in the 1-st place. The officer had no right to rush you, but he did.
I usually trust cops, but not this one! 141(6) carries 2 points (check with our "Demerit Points" table, or the one from MTO), so he lied right there, and I wouldn't believe what he said about the other driver either. You must be extra careful when dealing with tickets you received in collision, because if the other driver gets off without a ticket, you are automatically guilty of a collision! Don't even bother talking to the cop, try his supervisor instead, request the disclosure, and talk to a paralegal. If the other driver ran the red, then he is 100% responsible for the crash, not you with "improper left turn". Fight this ticket, you've only been served it recently, what you should have done is taken the collision report home in the 1-st place. The officer had no right to rush you, but he did.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
Thanks for your suggestion. I've talked to a paralegal and I am going to fight with it. I am going to make a revised statement too. However, my insurance company already decided it was at my fault, even before they received the police's report, because they said person who does left turn would hold at fault always. And they told me that they would't renew my insurance in March (I had one at-fault claim before). I will need to pay two time of insurance premium then. If I win in the court, will the insurance change their conclusion? or they just follow their own rules?
Thanks for your suggestion. I've talked to a paralegal and I am going to fight with it. I am going to make a revised statement too.
However, my insurance company already decided it was at my fault, even before they received the police's report, because they said person who does left turn would hold at fault always. And they told me that they would't renew my insurance in March (I had one at-fault claim before). I will need to pay two time of insurance premium then. If I win in the court, will the insurance change their conclusion? or they just follow their own rules?
The revised statement should be helpful, that's for sure. To address your concern about the insurance company, there's a separation between the outcome of the police investigation (Highway Traffic Act) and the insurance investigation. The insurance company's rules of finding who's at fault are made by the Insurance Act of Ontario and Fault Determination Rules. The outcome of your ticket will only affect your insurance rates down the road, not the insurance fault assessment in this collision. For insurance purposes, while it is true that a driver who turns left in front of another car is at fault for a collision, that should not apply if a driver runs a red light. Available at http://www.ibc.ca/en/Car_Insurance/docu ... -Rules.pdf You crossed the stop line when the light was still green for you, correct? That's the important factor. If you entered the intersection on green, and the driver blew through a red light, he'd be at least partially at fault, and you can certainly appeal their decision. See what they say. If you were stopped at the stop line, out of the intersection, and then began to move and entered the intersection on amber, both you and the driver who hit you disobeyed a traffic signal (if you can stop safely for the amber, you have to stop), so that cancels out and makes the driver who turned (you) at fault. Clear as mud.
The revised statement should be helpful, that's for sure. To address your concern about the insurance company, there's a separation between the outcome of the police investigation (Highway Traffic Act) and the insurance investigation. The insurance company's rules of finding who's at fault are made by the Insurance Act of Ontario and Fault Determination Rules. The outcome of your ticket will only affect your insurance rates down the road, not the insurance fault assessment in this collision.
For insurance purposes, while it is true that a driver who turns left in front of another car is at fault for a collision, that should not apply if a driver runs a red light.
15. (1) This section applies with respect to an incident that occurs at an intersection with traffic signals. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 668, s. 15 (1).
(2) If the driver of automobile "B" fails to obey a traffic signal, the driver of automobile "A" is not at fault and the driver of automobile "B" is 100 per cent at fault for the incident. R.R.O. 1990, Reg. 668, s. 15 (2).
You crossed the stop line when the light was still green for you, correct? That's the important factor. If you entered the intersection on green, and the driver blew through a red light, he'd be at least partially at fault, and you can certainly appeal their decision. See what they say. If you were stopped at the stop line, out of the intersection, and then began to move and entered the intersection on amber, both you and the driver who hit you disobeyed a traffic signal (if you can stop safely for the amber, you have to stop), so that cancels out and makes the driver who turned (you) at fault. Clear as mud.
Last edited by Radar Identified on Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Thanks very much. I need your help for some more questions; 1) My understanding from your explaination is that I don't need to wait for court's decision and can appeal against the insurance company's conclusion now,right? but how and where can I do the appealing? 2) The driver who hit me said to the police that the lights were still green when crossing. The witness says it was turning red and he saw that driver was accelerating. The factor was the car ahead of me turned left on yellow and just jumped into red then I started turning (yes, i was already stay in front of stop lines on green). How can I fight with the insurance company then? They adjuster held me at fault from the factor just simply because I was making left turn, and said also will look at the police report. I didn't see the police report but since I got the ticket that means the police decided me at fault. So I have to go back to my first question- if i win on the court, will the police change their report and therefore I can use it to fight with the insurance company?
Thanks very much. I need your help for some more questions;
1) My understanding from your explaination is that I don't need to wait for court's decision and can appeal against the insurance company's conclusion now,right? but how and where can I do the appealing?
2) The driver who hit me said to the police that the lights were still green when crossing. The witness says it was turning red and he saw that driver was accelerating. The factor was the car ahead of me turned left on yellow and just jumped into red then I started turning (yes, i was already stay in front of stop lines on green). How can I fight with the insurance company then? They adjuster held me at fault from the factor just simply because I was making left turn, and said also will look at the police report. I didn't see the police report but since I got the ticket that means the police decided me at fault. So I have to go back to my first question- if i win on the court, will the police change their report and therefore I can use it to fight with the insurance company?
- I never ever tell anyone how many points are attached to a ticket, such as this case I might have a brain fart and give the wrong point amount, I always tell the driver to contact the MTO. - Drivers can not take the collision report home - supervisor would have reviewed the report and signed it, so speaking with the supervisor will do what? - we do not modify a TR after a court date, this is up to the insurance companies to battle out.
- I never ever tell anyone how many points are attached to a ticket, such as this case I might have a brain fart and give the wrong point amount, I always tell the driver to contact the MTO.
- Drivers can not take the collision report home
- supervisor would have reviewed the report and signed it, so speaking with the supervisor will do what?
- we do not modify a TR after a court date, this is up to the insurance companies to battle out.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
1. Telling people "contact MTO" is definitely NOT "no points, just like a parking ticket" 2. Apparently one did.... 3. See 2. 4. What's a TR?
hwybear wrote:
- I never ever tell anyone how many points are attached to a ticket, such as this case I might have a brain fart and give the wrong point amount, I always tell the driver to contact the MTO.
- Drivers can not take the collision report home
- supervisor would have reviewed the report and signed it, so speaking with the supervisor will do what?
- we do not modify a TR after a court date, this is up to the insurance companies to battle out.
1. Telling people "contact MTO" is definitely NOT "no points, just like a parking ticket"
2. Apparently one did....
3. See 2.
4. What's a TR?
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
1. Telling people "contact MTO" is definitely NOT "no points, just like a parking ticket" 2. Apparently one did.... 3. See 2. 4. What's a TR? Sorry, TR = traffic collision report. No one would take the TR home, the only thing a driver would get at scene is a copy of top portion of the TR with the other drivers info on it. I know telling drivers to contact the MTO is most likely still going to be points. I just don't ever want to have a "brain moment" and tell someone that there is 3 points, when it could be none, 2, 4, 6, 7 or MORE. This way I am still relaying the correct information, if the person is so concerned they can contact the MTO, beside police do NOT issue points it is administered by the MTO
racer wrote:
hwybear wrote:
- I never ever tell anyone how many points are attached to a ticket, such as this case I might have a brain fart and give the wrong point amount, I always tell the driver to contact the MTO.
- Drivers can not take the collision report home
- supervisor would have reviewed the report and signed it, so speaking with the supervisor will do what?
- we do not modify a TR after a court date, this is up to the insurance companies to battle out.
1. Telling people "contact MTO" is definitely NOT "no points, just like a parking ticket"
2. Apparently one did....
3. See 2.
4. What's a TR?
Sorry, TR = traffic collision report. No one would take the TR home, the only thing a driver would get at scene is a copy of top portion of the TR with the other drivers info on it.
I know telling drivers to contact the MTO is most likely still going to be points. I just don't ever want to have a "brain moment" and tell someone that there is 3 points, when it could be none, 2, 4, 6, 7 or MORE. This way I am still relaying the correct information, if the person is so concerned they can contact the MTO, beside police do NOT issue points it is administered by the MTO
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
I didn't get a copy of top portion of the TR with the other drivers info on it. The police took our information and gave back me a Occurance number only. He said we didn't need to exchange information, just needto provide the number to our insurance company. Until now, I stil don't know another driver's any info.
I didn't get a copy of top portion of the TR with the other drivers info on it. The police took our information and gave back me a Occurance number only. He said we didn't need to exchange information, just needto provide the number to our insurance company. Until now, I stil don't know another driver's any info.
hwybear: I stand unchallenged so far. The LEO did say no points associated (straight lie), not "contact MTO about this offense", which is what should have been done. Apparently he had a major brain fart there. He did allow the other driver to finish the report of some sort at home (TCR? Victim statement? whatever it is you make people fill out when they are involved in a collision)), which is overstepping his duties. He did not provide any info about the driver to luckyrat6, yet another violation. He did hurry a driver who was in a collision, who does not speak English natively, which resulted in mistakes on luckyrat6's statement. And what for? So that he can get his daily quota of speeding tickets, instead of doing his duty and helping someone in need? There might be more from the story, but I'll refrain from making any statement unless I have more info about cop's behaviour.
hwybear: I stand unchallenged so far. The LEO did say no points associated (straight lie), not "contact MTO about this offense", which is what should have been done. Apparently he had a major brain fart there. He did allow the other driver to finish the report of some sort at home (TCR? Victim statement? whatever it is you make people fill out when they are involved in a collision)), which is overstepping his duties. He did not provide any info about the driver to luckyrat6, yet another violation. He did hurry a driver who was in a collision, who does not speak English natively, which resulted in mistakes on luckyrat6's statement. And what for? So that he can get his daily quota of speeding tickets, instead of doing his duty and helping someone in need? There might be more from the story, but I'll refrain from making any statement unless I have more info about cop's behaviour.
"The more laws, the less justice" - Marcus Tullius Cicero
"The hardest thing to explain is the obvious"
luckyrat6, call your insurance company and politely tell them that perhaps they did not correctly understand how the crash happened. If your adjuster said that the driver who turns left is always 100% at fault, he is not correct, and perhaps you should ask him for a clarification of why the Fault Determination Rules do not apply to this case. You've got easy access to a copy of them so that should be helpful, and you can quote it to him and ask him why he's ignoring that section. The other driver disobeyed a red light, you didn't, he hit you. The Fault Determination Rules are very clear: The driver who disobeys the traffic signal is usually 100% at fault, unless both drivers disobey the signal or there's other circumstances (drunk driving, etc). It may be worthwhile to send them a copy of your revised statement. You said you had a witness, right? Try to get a statement from him, if he's willing, that will verify your version of events. I would also suggest calling the Financial Services Commission of Ontario (FSCO) for advice. They regulate insurance in Ontario and, if you can't reach an agreement with your insurer, they provide mediation and arbitration services. This is their website: http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/english/insurance/auto/drs/#h Call them. It's free.
luckyrat6, call your insurance company and politely tell them that perhaps they did not correctly understand how the crash happened. If your adjuster said that the driver who turns left is always 100% at fault, he is not correct, and perhaps you should ask him for a clarification of why the Fault Determination Rules do not apply to this case. You've got easy access to a copy of them so that should be helpful, and you can quote it to him and ask him why he's ignoring that section. The other driver disobeyed a red light, you didn't, he hit you. The Fault Determination Rules are very clear: The driver who disobeys the traffic signal is usually 100% at fault, unless both drivers disobey the signal or there's other circumstances (drunk driving, etc).
It may be worthwhile to send them a copy of your revised statement. You said you had a witness, right? Try to get a statement from him, if he's willing, that will verify your version of events. I would also suggest calling the Financial Services Commission of Ontario (FSCO) for advice. They regulate insurance in Ontario and, if you can't reach an agreement with your insurer, they provide mediation and arbitration services. This is their website:
I do appreciate your help, Radar Identified. I am going to talk to my adjuster but I don't think I can change anything. She apparently replied on the police's report, which has put me at fault from my first statement. The witness can only prove the light was TURNING red and the driver was accelerating. He is not very sure if the light turned red at the moment when another driver reached the stop line and I was actually making turn. You know, it is about 0.01 second thing. They wouldn't trust my revised statement and Hwybear also said the police would modify the TR after court date... I am desparated... My trail would be at least after April, when I have to sign with another insurance company, paying two times of current premium (over $4400 a year!!!) Even I win the trail, they wouldn't care someone they are not covering and the new insurance wouldn't either for another company's decision.....
I do appreciate your help, Radar Identified. I am going to talk to my adjuster but I don't think I can change anything. She apparently replied on the police's report, which has put me at fault from my first statement. The witness can only prove the light was TURNING red and the driver was accelerating. He is not very sure if the light turned red at the moment when another driver reached the stop line and I was actually making turn. You know, it is about 0.01 second thing.
They wouldn't trust my revised statement and Hwybear also said the police would modify the TR after court date... I am desparated... My trail would be at least after April, when I have to sign with another insurance company, paying two times of current premium (over $4400 a year!!!) Even I win the trail, they wouldn't care someone they are not covering and the new insurance wouldn't either for another company's decision.....
It is just a statement from drivers and witnesses of anything of what happened. One tries to get all statements done at scene, (there might another priority call that comes in) so tell the person to write a statement out and collect it later.....not a big deal.....not overstepping duties. It is not a violation NOT to provide other driver info at scene, probably 90% of the time it is not possible. Give a person the incident number, they can contact the proper detachment/division for the info later. The officer has 10 days to complete the report.
racer wrote:
He did allow the other driver to finish the report of some sort at home (TCR? Victim statement? whatever it is you make people fill out when they are involved in a collision)), which is overstepping his duties. He did not provide any info about the driver to luckyrat6, yet another violation. He did hurry a driver who was in a collision, who does not speak English natively, which resulted in mistakes on luckyrat6's statement. And what for? So that he can get his daily quota of speeding tickets, instead of doing his duty and helping someone in need? .
It is just a statement from drivers and witnesses of anything of what happened. One tries to get all statements done at scene, (there might another priority call that comes in) so tell the person to write a statement out and collect it later.....not a big deal.....not overstepping duties.
It is not a violation NOT to provide other driver info at scene, probably 90% of the time it is not possible. Give a person the incident number, they can contact the proper detachment/division for the info later. The officer has 10 days to complete the report.
Above is merely a suggestion/thought and in no way constitutes legal advice or views of my employer. www.OHTA.ca
You may be right, you may not be able to change anything. It's still worth a try. $4400 per year is a lot to pay in insurance premiums. If nothing else, FSCO could provide you with more help than I could. I'm told that they are usually helpful, and willing to clarify what should've happened and how the rules work, and so on and so forth. Try to protest the adjuster's decision as much as possible, as the insurance implications are going to hit you before fighting the ticket comes into play. Good luck with it, hopefully it turns out for the best. As for fighting the ticket, the paralegal should be able to get the charge dropped or reduced quite a bit. That will help with your insurance, although it will only be a small amount compared to if you got the "100% at fault" decision changed to either "50% at fault" or "0% at fault."
luckyrat6 wrote:
You know, it is about 0.01 second thing.
You may be right, you may not be able to change anything. It's still worth a try. $4400 per year is a lot to pay in insurance premiums. If nothing else, FSCO could provide you with more help than I could. I'm told that they are usually helpful, and willing to clarify what should've happened and how the rules work, and so on and so forth. Try to protest the adjuster's decision as much as possible, as the insurance implications are going to hit you before fighting the ticket comes into play. Good luck with it, hopefully it turns out for the best.
As for fighting the ticket, the paralegal should be able to get the charge dropped or reduced quite a bit. That will help with your insurance, although it will only be a small amount compared to if you got the "100% at fault" decision changed to either "50% at fault" or "0% at fault."
I've looked at FSCO's website, and found I can file a complaint. Thanks a lot Radar Identified. This is the right source I need to go, if the insurance company doesn't listen to me. I am going to try.
Radar Identified wrote:
FSCO could provide you with more help than I could. I'm told that they are usually helpful, and willing to clarify what should've happened and how the rules work, and so on and so forth. Try to protest the adjuster's decision as much as possible, as the insurance implications are going to hit you before fighting the ticket comes into play. Good luck with it, hopefully it turns out for the best.
I've looked at FSCO's website, and found I can file a complaint. Thanks a lot Radar Identified. This is the right source I need to go, if the insurance company doesn't listen to me. I am going to try.
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I received a red light camera ticket. In the picture, you see an ambulance in front of me with flashing lights. I had moved to alleviate the traffic behind me for the emergency vehicles coming behind it.
Is this a possible defense, if so, does anyone know any good case law to justify this position?
what happens if they charge someone for driving at 151Km/hr in montreal and they put for trial, appear after some months and sadly lost the trial ?
In montreal its $300 fine and 5demerit points ...
I heard Ontario and Qubec share the information. So once the trial is over ( and when the file moved to ontario) will his car gets towed and licence get suspended for 7days (later to 30 days ) ? and he…
I got a notice in the mail that trial is set four weeks from today, so it's time to request disclosure. I have zero chance of getting an 11b since trial is less than two months after the offense date and the officer did not reduce the charge. I really want to try and create delays on the trial, to reduce the chance of the officer showing up on multiple occasions. Is there any known loop-holes…
This weekend my father was involved in an accident with a transit bus in Burlington, ON. After the police showed up he was charged with "Fail to obey stop sign" Sec. 136(1)(a). At this particular intersection there NO stop signs but there are traffic lights. There is construction going on there so one of the light posts is smaller.
Driving conditions were terribly wet and visibility was low.…
So my boyfriend and I recently started dating. I have a vehicle that was insured. Insurance cost too much and I found it was just as easy to walk to work due to how close it was. But I didn't want to get rid of my car just yet, plus I'm still making payments on it as well. When we moved into our appartment together, I had it towed to my parking spot out back.
I was making a left hand legal turn on a green light, a driver came through the lane I was supposed to be going into ran the red and hit me head on as I was turning into my lane. When the officer came he was telling me that I was racing and driving recklessly because apparently there was reports of street racing in the area. I was not charged on the scene for this but I'm scared i am going to be…
I got a ticket for failure to surrender insurance because I did not have my new insurance stubs with me, just a bunch of expired ones. My policy number has not changed, so I asked the officer to just run the policy number so I could prove that I was in fact insured. He said they don't have that ability, handed me the ticket and reminded me that my car could have been impounded.
So I'm in a bit of a pickle and would appreciate if someone could clarify something for me.
I'm less than a month away (test on April 6th) from getting my full G license, and got a speeding ticket recently. The ticket was for 49km/h over the posted limit of 100km/h on the 403 in Oakville/Halton region, but was reduced from the initial ~60km/h over.
